#E29 Leveraging the Metaverse to Better Our Lives With Sophia Moshasha

About Sophia Moshasha

Sophia Moshasha is the Vice President of the DC Chapter of the VR/AR Association, co-founder of XR Women, and a producer and host of The Polys - WebXR Awards. Since 2017 Sophia has been actively engaged in the immersive technology community and a field expert consulted by leading media platforms.

Over the years, Sophia has played a vital role in guiding policy and standard-setting organizations like the VR/AR Association, Congressional Reality Caucus, Metaverse Standards Forum, and the National Training and Simulation Association. Her efforts equip these entities to comprehend the immersive technology landscape, ensuring they are well-equipped to meet the burgeoning interest in adopting these technologies.

Read the HYPERSCALE transcript.

(00:35) Briar: I'm Briar Prestige, and this is Hyperscale, the podcast of the future. We don't know for certain what the future of technology might look like, but we're starting to form some ideas. No answer lasts forever, but we drive transformation with all the right questions. We're curious, we're adapting with the times we're enjoying the discovery.

Hi everybody, and welcome to another episode of Hyperscale. It's your host Briar Prestige. And today I've got Sophia Moshasha on the call and I am very excited to see her. The last time I saw her was in a volumetric awards. I think it was, we were attending, wasn't it? It was a crazy XR event.

(01:30) Sophia: Yeah, it, it was a lot of fun. It was in New York City, so I was really happy to see everyone in person, but still doing some really unique and novel virtual production things for the Polly's Web XR Awards. So thank you again for being a part of that.

(01:43) Briar: Well, thank you for coming on the show today, Sophia. So Sophia has just finished up at Meta, so I'm looking forward to talking to her about all things XR at Meta. And you are also the co-founder of XR Women, aren't you Sophia?

(01:58) Sophia: I am. We've been going strong for two and a half years and about 130 consecutive events weekly in virtual spaces. 

(02:07) Briar: Amazing. So Sophia, I'm going to ask you with the question that I hear a lot of people saying online is the Metaverse dead?

(02:18) Sophia: Well, it depends what you define the Metaverse. .

(02:21) Briar: Let's start there. How would you define the Metaverse? 

(02:26) Sophia: First of all, I think that people in these emerging technology spaces need to come to a consensus of what exactly it is. Because we all kind of have varying definitions of it. And actually, I was at a conference called AWE Augmented World Expo a couple weeks ago in Santa Clara. And we had a kind of an executive breakfast of some of the thought leaders and change makers in our industry. And that was one of the big questions there is we have to come to a consensus of what it is. So we are able to, to effectively communicate that to the public moving forward. So they have trust and hope for these technologies. Bottom line is the metaverse is not dead. We are going through phases of iterations of trying and testing different technologies, seeing what works what best practices are integrating these technologies including, 2D inter interfaces as well as 3D interfaces like AR and VR, but also other technologies like AI and blockchain and edge computing, spatial computing, 5G like, all of these things come together to create this robust ecosystem of what we're eventually going to be.

I don't know if it's necessarily going to be called the Metaverse. Apple's announcement,  didn't even say the M word, but we can all agree that it's, it's a form of spatial computing and just a new paradigm accessing information and interacting with new people, places, objects, whether they are physical or digital assets. Hopefully the whole point is making our lives better and easier and more functional and all of those things.

(04:25) Briar: I think that's an excellent answer. And how I like to think of the Metaverse in my world is just the next evolution of the internet to a certain extent. And I think with that in mind, when people ask me about the Metaverse, I'm thinking, well we don't exactly know what it's going to entail in the future, but if we're thinking of it as just being the next evolution, then of course the metaverse is going to exist, right? Because it's just the next evolution. It reminds me of this awesome clip that I saw with Bill Gates when he was on the David Letterman show and David Letterman's like, is like, what's the internet? And Bill Gates said, well, it's a business directory of sorts and we all know that it evolved to become so much more than that. We've got our smartphones, we've got Apple Pay, we've got social media. That’s how I sort of think of the Metaverse as well. 

I also, like you think we've just got such a disconnect? Well, there's this weird way that our world is presently set up where we're constantly on our smartphones, we're constantly on our laptop computers. Like, why I can't wait for the day that I'm walking around in my contacts or my cool XR glasses and I've got augmented reality coming out at me. Or I'm a virtual avatar bouncing in other worlds.

(05:46) Sophia: First of all, me too. I'm already doing a lot of that and it's a lot of fun. And we've met in, in VR for your premiere of your documentary, 48 Hours of the Metaverse which was a novel first as far as I know as well. So it's so much fun doing all, all of these world firsts together. But I always said that like we as technologists can only do so much in defining what the metaverse will become because a lot of it is interacting with different industries, different consumers and users to understand how they would potentially use these technologies and what they kind of want out of it. We need the subject matter experts from these different industry verticals to kind of define how we develop these technologies for their needs. So it's definitely, we're going to see more of a collaborative effort. So I'm really happy that we're at a place where people are paying attention, and are interested in getting more involved outside of the core industry so we can kind of help define it and shape it together. Because that’s really what we're going to need. We're going to need that buy-in from everyone that's going to be using it to be able to deploy it and have it be accessible for everyone.

(07:04) Briar: Absolutely. And I think accessibility is a big thing, right? The current headsets that we've got, they're so bulky. Obviously Apple just released their latest headset too, which I'm desperate to try. Love the fact you can see your eyes now. Although that does get rid of my slick skins wraps that I've got. So I was like, okay, I'll have to think on this one. But I just can't wait for the day that they're a lot smaller. And I think part of the reason that I was excited about Apple coming into this space is not necessarily because of what they released, but it's more about like, hey, here's some competition. Like we are entering this space now. Hopefully they start competing with each other. Is that where you think this will go? Do you think Meta is going to start putting out some more smaller headsets or how can we make this more accessible for people?

(07:55) Sophia: Well, competition is great and having so many players in the field particularly in hardware development is great because it allows companies and developers to kind of push the boundaries of what we can do with technology, obviously. But we all know that meadow was working on they had had a product in collaboration with Ray Bands where, people put glasses on their head and there were integrated cameras and audio. I feel like that was Meta's way of getting people used to having cameras on their head and kind of this like seamless everyday kind of wearable manner. 

Of course we all know that they have internal developments going on what more they can do, to make devices smaller, maybe expand more into the AR sphere. They’ve done a lot with mixed reality already, so it just would make sense for them to get into that as well. because Really, augmented reality hadn't worn displays are really going to be the everyday use of this type of technology. Now I'm not comparing AR and VR whatsoever because I think they're completely different technologies, completely different use cases. So we shouldn't be necessarily bulking them together and kind of pitting them against each other. But, obviously the goal is to have people wear these devices more often. And so whatever we can do to make it more comfortable and more seamless to use, I think that's what the, the manufacturers care about.

I saw a post come out from someone about Zuckerberg's opinion on Apple's release of the headset and kind of, where that leaves Meta and first of all, Meta harps on this being a social medium to interact with different people, which is why they're investing so much in particularly virtual reality. And then, they have their social VR platform called horizon Worlds, whereas you compared it to at least Apple's announcement. I'm sure they have more plans for what they're going to do with their headset and how they're going to introduce it to. 

(10:23) Briar: They've probably got another four headsets lined up knowing Apple

(10:27) Sophia: Yeah, probably. Exactly, exactly. So my, ideas on Apple is that well first of all like Zuckerberg had mentioned in his post, they're really focused on and emphasizing the two D displays. And I think that is just to, again, get people used to just a different user interface of the same applications they're using on their iOS devices and just being able to see and use those same applications through a different display, just like your iPad, just like your Apple watch, those types of things. So I think it's really strategic of them to kind of introduce these technologies to consumers in this way. So they're kind of ramping up the user interface to what it could be down the road, whereas something like another VR headset, you have to learn a whole new operating system. You have to learn whole new user interface with the controls and all of those things. So I think they're just trying to make it an easier on boarding for new consumers. So familiar processes and interactions through different interface. I think that's kind of what they're focusing on, although they do touch on 3D capabilities and spatial mapping and all of those things.

 So I think for the industry people, like we kind of got those cues from the announcement of, okay, like this is what they're focusing on, but we see that it's capable of so much more. So, it's our duty as technologists to kind of like develop to that and see what we can do to kind of utilize those capabilities to the best of our abilities. I like that they're tapping into existing developer communities with their collaboration with Unity. Content is king in this world of growing this new industry. Because We need content for people to be able to interact with and use and particularly useful content, not just gaming content. So the more that we can do as an industry to help enable that content development, I think the better off we will all be.

(12:44) Briar: Absolutely. And I've had the pleasure of seeing such amazing content. I'm still crying over the fact that Altspace is now non-existent after the Microsoft layoffs. They obviously took down my favourite platform, Altspace, and I'm part of the Altspace Facebook community. And I think people have tried to migrate onto VR chat, but there was really something so special about the community feel that Altspace had because there were a lot of adults, I guess and like-minded people that were part of it, not just children and gaming sort of things. So I do hope that over time we do find that space, that safe space that we all love again.

(13:30) Sophia: Definitely. I mean, it's been interesting to explore just alternatives in different platforms and you kind of come to the realization that, none of 'em are where, we necessarily want them to be right now none of them are perfect if thing a platform like Engage is super capable, but you still have this desktop download component to it, which, halters accessibility to some extent. Obviously what we're the goal, the goal is, and what we're aiming towards is having everything kind of accessible through, through the web. Which we have some awesome developments there with platforms like Frame and Spatial and others. But then there's also limitations to how many people and users that those applications and platforms can hold and those types of things. 

So it's definitely Altspace was done. It was, however I think that there's nothing like some fire to get people going and get people innovating. I mean, we saw it during the pandemic when everything was shut down and we had to rely on other virtual digital mediums to communicate and meet and do all of those things. And we saw a lot of innovation spinning. So I think that with the demise of Altspace, I think there's going to be a lot of cool new developments that are coming our way.

(15:08) Briar: Absolutely. And I think one of the most fascinating, awesome platforms that, that I got to see was Burning Man by Athena and Doug. So when I visited them on my world hopping 48 hours of the Metaverse Adventure, I got to go to Burning Man. And that was on Alt Space, and that was born from the Pandemic. Everyone was like, hey, we can't go to Burning Man on the Sand this year. We'll just recreate it in virtual reality. And there really were a lot of very special and still is a lot of very special communities and platforms and use cases and things that were born from the pandemic. So I absolutely agree with you.

(15:48) Sophia: I actually was with some of the Burning man B R C V R crew that built this space back at this conference, AWE all those things. 

(16:08) Briar: Sand, lots of sand, but

(16:13) Sophia: Yeah, and lots of , yeah, not good for the hair, but having experienced it in virtual reality, having built relationships with those same communities and virtual reality has made me want to go in real life. So I think that, a lot of people might be naysayers about the technology saying, we're going to end up as cyborgs or something like that, just kind of have this full online identity which we're not going to ever leave and you're just going to be stuck on our phones, on our computers, on our headsets, and all of those things in order to be social. However, I think it in some ways, this technology is an enabler for real life, physical social interaction as well. because Like I said, for me, I would've never gone to Burning Man on my own, but now having experienced what it could be like through virtual reality, I'm actually planning on going this year. So it's great. It's a great medium to kind of introduce you to new experiences that you might want to try in real life.

(17:17) Briar: You know what, it's so funny you say that because I also am planning on going after my experience in virtual reality. So we'll get to go together, we'll start coordinating after this podcast. I was literally having this chat with my boyfriend a couple of days ago, so I'm totally with you. And part of the reason is, yeah, I want to go see these people. I want to go see the community. When we got to meet for the first time, face-to-face in New York must have been what, maybe like five months after we met a few times as avatars and there were many other friendships that I'd formed as avatars. And it was just so interesting to then put a real face to the name. Athena's, like, yeah, it's funny, isn't it? It's kind of like meeting an old university friend or something, someone who's familiar, but at the same time a little bit, bit different.

(18:05) Sophia: It's, interesting obviously all of us experienced very similar things especially us in this industry, during the pandemic, where everything was closed, we weren't going to meetings, we weren't going to conferences. So again, we were forced to meet through these digital and virtual mediums. And sometimes it was like two, three years that I'd been interacting with somebody on either a video call or as an avatar. And then when we saw each other in person for the first time, like, we like ran and gave each other hugs. Like we knew each other, but it's funny because I didn't recognize them by their, by their face. I recognize them by their voice and by their name tag. I had to look down every time I'm like, looking down, oh, like, oh, oh my gosh, I know you, and not only do I know you, I've, developed a real relationship with you, so we're like hugging, giving each other kisses and all this stuff. So it was really interesting. I think that that's the first time I probably in the history of mankind, that something like that has been able to happen and specifically because of the combination of what was happening during the pandemic, the shutdown, as well as the accessibility to some of these tools and hardware, like virtual reality and, and through a head worn display, but also through 2D mediums as well. It's really cool to see that.

(19:32) Briar: Absolutely. And thinking ahead into the future, and obviously we don't have the answers. We were talking earlier about how we don't necessarily have the metaverse, or even if we're calling it the Metaverse these days, I don't know, I'm calling it the Metaverse throughout the but you oh Jesus, I like to call you. I know that you don't like to call it the Metaverse or spatial computing or whatever it is that it, we are calling it. But thinking ahead into the future, like, can you try and describe how you think the future might be? Like how would we be interacting with technology? What kind of ways would we be using stuff like this? Like, I just want to hear your, your imagination, basically.

(20:14) Sophia: Well, I think on the creation part of things, we're starting to see a lot of democratization of, content creation, making it easier for, people like us who aren't necessarily developers to go in and start creating and making environments and experiences. I mean I already have, I have my, personal little showcase of what I've done in my career in 3D on frame. So I'm able to take people in there and kind of show them everything that I've done in, in my career. I also think that, obviously with the convergence of different technologies like blockchain and AI and things like that, first of all, AI is going to speed up the content creation process as well. And again, I'm going to harp on this content is king. If people are going to adopt these technologies and pay $3,400 or however much Apple is charging for their headset if they're going to pay for that, they need things to do in the headset. And again, not just gaming, we need these killer applications that are going to make people's lives easier and making their day-to-day easier. 

I think AI is going to be a key part of creating content more seamlessly and more rapidly. But also we talk about the metaverse as being something that we can access anywhere at any time. And I think that the incorporation of AI in particular is going to make that a reality even faster by, having these like AI hosts in these worlds where it's like 4:00 AM and you're entering, nobody else is there. Let's say. you'll have people to interact with and talk to and potentially develop relationships with or businesses, who instead of having representatives, man, their virtual booths or websites, they'll have hosts, AI hosts there that will kind of help people navigate, or like AI chat bots or whatever, but in the form of avatars that will help people navigate their products and services and their website and those types of things. Really making the metaverse truly accessible for at any time anywhere. So I think we're going to see definitely more of that. 

Like I said before, I don't think that this is going to be a replacement for seeing people in real life. I think it's actually going to be a significant extension of what we can do in real life and how we can meet people. I always said that there is a place for every type of interaction. Like, when I connect with people, let's say I'll meet them in virtual reality, then I'll connect with them on LinkedIn knowing that that's how I'm going to more consistently stay in touch with people, especially on a professional level. I'm engaging with them in their posts and those types of things. And then when I happen to be, in their location, the geographical location, I will look them up and I will ask to go get coffee with them.

So I know that all of these mediums of interacting with people are equally important in different ways, but realistically, being able to see someone to build those relationships consistently is not realistic. So these mediums come into play and they're very important in different ways to maintaining those relationships. So that's, that's something that we just have to realize moving forward. 

(24:10) Briar: Absolutely. 

(24:12) Sophia: I think it's going to be great. Qualcomm at AWE just announced their new product called Snapdragon Spaces and Dual Render Fusion, basically making it easier for the mobile device to be a user interface for head worn display augmented reality, and then also being able to easily convert or build on existing applications, mobile applications to convert them to 3D accessible assets through augmented reality. So again, making it easier for consumers with phones to interact with and access, these types of technologies. And also making it easier for developers to just build on existing applications and existing content to introduce 3D content with a mobile device with these existing applications. So I think those types of things are what we're going to see, like these intermediary steps to going, full, super capable like Quest Pro type of  devices that people are going to be using. We need to be able to on ramp people to these different interfaces in different ways. And I think your PC and mobile device are key to that.

(25:33) Briar: Absolutely. I was speaking to someone recently and they said that in the future I could potentially be an avatar in New York with my five senses and I could be going out in my business in New York, conducting business meeting people whilst I'm here in Dubai. And then that got me thinking, I was like, great, I can sleep and then I can have my avatar out working for me whilst I sleep. I thought this was the coolest idea ever. Do you think this is something that could be a reality for me? Because I have gotten quite excited about it.

(26:10) Sophia: I mean a hundred percent. You can already train chatGPT to speak, like you in your content and in your tone. There's many like tutorials out there for like, prompt engineering to be able to better train artificial intelligence in these algorithms. So I definitely think that we're going to be able to do that relatively soon. A lot of these components are kind of already there, but it's kind of putting everything together and making it work seamlessly together. Like I know Engage, for example, is, partnering with an AI company to create AI avatars. And they already have really great avatars that you can superimpose a picture of your face on the avatar. So it looks like you, and it's blinking and it's moving its mouth. So imagine, using AI and kind of training it up on your personality and how to talk like you, but then also, using these other programs to actually mimic your voice box essentially. So, and all of these technologies already exist. It's just a matter of continuously, testing and integrating and seeing what the best combination is of all of this.

(27:29) Briar: That's quite cool. And you were obviously talking about some other cool things before. What are some, I don't know, three other top cool things that we should check out? Because a lot of the time when I'm speaking to my peers, they say to me when they've seen 48 hours especially, they're like, oh, I didn't realize you could do that. Or, oh, I'm so surprised by what I've seen. So say someone's listening to this podcast today and they're going to go off and do something, what would you suggest that they do?

(27:59) Sophia: I at least see chapter of the VR AR association. I think that's a great way to meet other professionals in the industry. I host their podcast as well, so there are lots of people talking about what they do. Also on that podcast, I know a big concern is ethics and safety in order to even move things forward. So, Kent Bye is a great resource. He hosts the Voices of VR podcast, but he also, he focuses a lot on ethics and safety in the Metaverse, and he has something out called XR Ethics Manifesto, which I recommend checking out. Kavya Pearlman is also a powerhouse advocating for ethics in the Metaverse. She runs something called the XR Safety Initiative, XR Association as well. They're more on the advocacy side of these technologies.

The Kronos Group and the Metaverse Interoperability Forum, they're creating standards for developing and creation on the web. So they're doing really, really important work as well. And Underwriters Laboratory, they are kind of like the stamp of approval on consumer devices. So when you go to a store and you see like the UL symbol it shows that it's been tested and approved by Underwriters Laboratory for use for consumers. So they are actually, I'm not sure if it's approved yet, but they're putting standards in place for the safety of XR hardware devices. So again, there's a lot of moving things that are kind of happening concurrently together that are really helping to shape, the future of accessibility for this medium. I know we talk about when we talk accessibility, we're not just talking about how people can access these, this medium through other devices than their headset, like their mobile device through the PC and stuff like that.

But we're talking about how people with potentially disabilities who weren't able to regularly engage with the world as it is now through the mediums that we have now how can we make the world more accessible to them through these mediums. And so there's, there's also another organization called XR Access that are doing a lot of exploration around how to make these new tools more accessible for the disabled, but also help them communicate with the world and be engaged with the world in other ways that are possible right now. 

So there are lots of resources out there. There's a group on LinkedIn that I lead called Reality Innovators Network, where it's, again, it's just a form of everybody just like talking about all the things that they're working on gathering feedback and all of that stuff. And it has like 75,000 members. So there's a big gathering there, and we host monthly events, hosting speakers and  things like that. Just, it's a lot of information gathering and information sharing. Even within our industry, we're all kind of learning and creating this world together. Like I said even if you're new to this space, people bring a lot of value through their past experiences and their expertise, and we need voices from everywhere. Which is kind of what we tell our community with XR women. And we have a lot of new people coming in to the community, but to the industry at large wanting to understand how they can find a place for themselves. And the short answer is there is . There is a place for everyone in this technology. If you think of it as just a new medium of communication.

(31:56) Briar: I think those are very true things, and I certainly have felt how warm and welcoming the XR community are. It was just amazing, when I was doing my crazy 48 hours in the metaverse, just how they embraced me, taught me, all of these wonderful things showed me around. And yeah, so everything Sophia says is absolutely true. And you spoke a bit about safety in the metaverse. Do you think that we are doing enough for our younger generation who are very much growing up as digital natives?

(32:31) Sophia: I mean, we don't know what we don't know, and it really comes with trying and testing new things. And I just consider this medium similarly to mediums that we already have, and we have to regulate them in the same ways, like your computer and the internet, like the mobile device. Would you give your five year old free roaming access on the web and on different applications on your, on the computer and your mobile device? Probably not. And so you just have to watch what kind of content they're tuning into. The problem is though, that a lot of it's like a one-to-one, so you can't really see what people are looking at. There are ways to do that in cast through your phone and those types of things. So there are definitely ways to view what other people are viewing.

I think it's educating the parents first and foremost, not to be afraid of these technologies. They're very useful, especially to a developing mind that is trying to learn, especially with a short attention span that's kind of gets put in there and like, and forces them to focus on the subject matter and experience by doing and all of those things. But, but we just have to educate the parents on, kind of treat this technology as you would anything else, any other technology, and just be aware of what is available on these mediums and how to self-regulate what you and your children are kind of viewing and experiencing through these mediums. There are the kind of additional concerns with the biofeedback and all of those things that we're kind of working through and kind of figuring out, but also the opportunities for someone to kind of be taken and misled are even greater through these mediums.

I think it's important for people to realize, even especially with the coming of AI that there are dangers that are potentially associated with these mediums. More so even than getting a phishing email because you're now developing relationships with a seemingly real person on the other side even more so than these chat rooms and things like that. So I think it's just being aware, being educated, responsible uses, just like any other medium out there. When it comes to educational settings, especially, there are ways to kiosk mode these devices where people can put on a headset and there's a very controlled environment of what people can access through these mediums. So again think of it just like any other device that's out there right now, there are definitely concerns and, content that you can access, but there are ways to regulate it as well, to be safe. So I just think the onus is a lot of it is on the user and the responsible parties just  to educate themselves.

(35:43) Briar: I have heard a few stories of people that have been like tricked or led astray. I was hearing about this person on Altspace called Aussie Guy or something, and he used to go out and like he took lots of money from somebody. I don't know the full details I've been trying to find out from the community. I was like, man, this is like some detective story that I have to understand. But yeah, Aussie Guy was just ripping people off. And part of something that I want to do soon is I want to go down and find like, the bad spaces. Like where can I find the, the bad spaces in, XR, in VR, like the, the places that perhaps I just don't want to go. I don't want to see the stuff that's happening, like, where can I find these spaces? Because I'm very curious.

(36:33) Sophia: Yeah. First of all, that's really sad to hear because it is kind of tainting the reputation of the metaverse for, people that don't know too much about it and that are just kind of hearing about the bad news

(36:47) Briar: And on and on that note, you are completely right. Like guys whoever's listening to this, like, remember there's bad stuff with everything. There are so many amazing things about the Metaverse and just like the internet, there are also some people out there that just take advantage of it. So yeah, I feel like we need this disclaimer as well. 

(37:04) Sophia: There's always bad actors, there's bad actors everywhere and then, but the important thing is that we kind of understand and realize that these are the possibilities. And to start early to kind of help regulate and combat and set standards for what we want, as a community for them. But some platforms and some social spaces that I really like. I love engage because it's just beautiful, beautiful content, beautiful environments. The avatars are awesome. And I mean, I'm not a gamer myself, so I like going into spaces to be social. So they just had a really, really, really cool example of an immersive concert by Fat Boy Slim. I don't know if, you've got a chance to try it, but if not, we'll definitely go together. And, it's just about re-imagining what you potentially could do in when there are no like boundaries, there's no physics boundaries of things that actually exist in real life.

I always say that we're not limited by the, the technology, the capabilities of technology, but we're more limited by our creativity on expanding our minds on what we could do with the technology. So in this concert, you're just like kind of flying around, you're like in the mouth of like this giant being you're walking around on the, the count counter at this little cafe while other like big giants are like sipping the coffee and stuff like that. You're like little ants like riding on these little cars around. It was really a good showcase of if you let the boundaries of your of your mind of what the confinements of what you think you can do at least in real life, if you kind of let that go, how you can really utilize these spaces So anyways, that's Engage.

 But spatial is really great as well, and they're getting really into like the gallery spaces art and at like NFTs and showcasing where your art and galleries and those types of things. But you can obviously do anything with that platform. But they have, I like that they also have kind of like a community there. So there are a lot of open spaces that you can go to where you'll find people roaming around and checking out art and doing events and all of those other things. So I like platforms that have kind of community built into it. Because again, that's why I like going into these spaces. And like I said, frame is do-- Frame I consider the Wix or the Squarespace of immersive websites. So it makes it really easy for you to go in and build something for yourself. So I really, really like what Frame is doing to create accessibility and building immersive experiences there. Meta Horizons and Horizon Worlds is another good one that has community built into it. So you can find a lot of kindred spirits there. So.

(40:18) Briar: Amazing. And so you've recently finished up in Meta, how long were you working for Meta for?

(40:24) Sophia: I was there for a year with them doing a lot of public policy initiatives for them. So basically helping to educate policy stakeholders on the value of these technologies, because they're going to be the ones that are regulating this technology, and we need to effectively communicate what this technology is and what it can do to be, again, in front of kind of the future of the technology and how it's going to be regulated in the US and beyond. So it's really important work to, to be collaborative with them and really help them understand what these technologies are before they decide the fate of them .

(41:06) Briar: Absolutely. I've been speaking quite a bit recently, especially after the whole AI hype and, and things like this about how Like, I don't know, it's just a very frustrating topic because I think that a lot of the people in government are just really like old and clueless when it comes to technology and things. And the problem is, is that when you've got all of these things that are happening around the world, it's like, well, how can we sort of rally the troops together? How can we get a diverse set of, of people together, whether its philosophers, technologists, people from corporates, people from start-ups, like scientists, like all of these people. I think the unfortunate thing when it comes to technology is we just kind of leave it in the hands of yeah, either governments who have no idea, or corporates who have their own greedy pockets to line. So what  should we be doing? Whether it's we're talking about the metaverse or whether we're even talking about artificial intelligence, which is obviously massively hyped at the moment.

(42:12) Sophia: And that's why I think, we as an industry need to get out in front of these things. Yes, we need to innovate and no, we don't like stifle the innovation at the same time. However, we need to make people comfortable with these technologies, and it's our duty to help them see the value and for us to also be real and upfront with ourselves on the possible implications of this technology. And to, again, get in front of this to help ease people's minds on how this technology will be used and how they'll feel more secure using it in all of those things. That's equally as important as innovation. If we want mass adoption. 

Again, I think things like the Metaverse Interoperability Forum, like all of the organizations that I named, they're doing really important work. And the forums doing important work in, in kind of standardizing the content creation specifically around the web which I think is important. But again all of these ethics and safety and standards organizations working on this technology, they're doing the good work on behalf of all of us. So when I speak publicly or, on my podcasts and stuff like that I tend to avoid, safety and ethics concerns and all of that because A, we want to boost  the credibility of the technology and, B these are things that are all being worked on in the background. And I don't think we're ready for prime time yet in terms of educating people on how, the metaverse is going to be protected. But I think it's important to let people know that we are working on solutions, we're working on standards, we're working on, educating ourselves on what the implications are. So I think that message is important to get help definitely. And being openly collaborative with all the players in the industry.

(44:27) Briar: And so now that you're finished up at Meta. What’s next on the cards for you, Sophia? Anything you can reveal to us yet?

(44:35) Sophia: Well, I will say that we're gearing up for the fourth annual Polys, and we have some, some really interesting things that we're going to do this year, which I'm not going to tell yet. But all I can say is that we like to push the boundaries of what we're doing with the technologies, as do all of us, but specifically in this hybrid, virtual and live kind of presence, like you saw in this last iteration of the Polys where we're doing live volumetric capture and streaming into virtual platforms, we want to do that plus allow people to actually be in those virtual mediums with that volumetric stream, being able to choose the angle at which they're seeing the speakers. So that's one thing that we want to do, but we have some pool partnerships aligned up there. And then we have our fourth annual Ready Player Golf event coming up that is an annual charity event that we do in virtual reality using Engage.

And historically we partnered with Golf Plus we might be changing up our partnership to try new applications this year. But basically it's a way to get people into immersive, both on a XR professionals as well as those who aren't traditionally in the space for a-- because we all care about, but also in a relatable experience to what we would do in real life. So we have a clubhouse and engage where people gather, network talk, all of these things. We then have portals set up that take each team to their designated green so they can play their game of golf. And, and again, that is in a different Quest application. So in this experience, we're actually showcasing application interoperability within the Quest ecosystem, which is very, very interesting. And again, a novel thing here. So we're doing that.

And then we have an award show that we do afterwards that again, is just like a different vibe and unique experience than what you traditionally see. Like someone standing on stage and people coming up on stage to accept their award. We have an immersive space, so we're using all of it. We're not just bound by the stage for the show. We're using the entire, the entire setting of the entire space to create this award show. And so really interesting things coming up in a lot of like community building initiatives and all of that. And then obviously we have our weekly XR Women events that we have right now in iLRN Virbela Campus. But we're going to be moving soon to engage. That's an announcement that is coming out soon. So we're really, really excited for, what more we can even do in the Engage platform for this community. So I look forward to seeing you at all these events because you're so now entwined and integrated with our community. So it would be great to have you there.

(47:56) Briar: Oh, thank you so much for the invitation. Yeah, the last time I saw Sophia, this Volumetric thing that she was in, was fascinating. They were basically filming her and then her physical being was then in virtual reality and then this was streamed out to the masses. So it was pretty epic. And it was the first time something like this had been done, you kind of have to see it to understand what I'm talking about, I think. But it was amazing and the stage had all of this like epic colours and stuff too, so it was, yeah, it was really awesome. Now to finish up, Sophia, I've got a random story to share with you. Okay. I don't know if my producer Georgia mentioned this to you, maybe she didn't, but so it's going to be a complete surprise today.

Essentially we've been building this story with all of our podcast guests and each person has contributed towards the story. So I want you to use your imagination. You don't have to be too serious about this, and I'm going to finish the story and I want you to add to it in first person. Okay. Alright. So you've woken up in the morning in an organic breathing bed and you've walked into the kitchen and any dish you desire is available at your fingertips. You get ready for your day at work and you put on your suit, which has an integrated technology which assesses your brain state. You are in a relaxed and focused state today, so that's good. You assign your work task to a robot, you call R2D2  two and another robot makes you coffee. What happens after this

(49:41) Sophia: I love that first of all, this sounds very similar to a play that we did at AWE last year, A day in the life using these technologies.  Assuming it's a workday I would probably set up my virtual desktop through my Quest Pro or my new X reel glasses that I just got, because I don't have a large desk and I have just my laptop I'm working on. I don't even have an external monitor. This was a great way to get 3,4,5 at one time. And so I'd probably set up my virtual desktop and start working from there. And then take my Zoom calls from there, being able to invite other virtual beings into my workspace, those types of things. And even then taking a break to go visit someone in this cool virtual world or a digital twin of somewhere else in the world. To take my break from my virtual desktop and my work, that's probably what I would do. And actually that's what I am geared to set up now,  after this call. So we're definitely not too far from that future that you've just described.

(51:02) Briar: Okay. I love it. Well, thank you so much for coming on this show, Sophia, really great to see you today.