#E40 Futurepreneurship and Foresight in Business With Dr. Dana Marduk

About Dr. Dana Marduk.

At the forefront of futurepreneurship, Dana combines the entrepreneurial mindset with futures thinking to shape the world of tomorrow. As a distinguished member of the World Futures Studies Federation, an esteemed consultant and ambassador at OpenExO, and with a prestigious doctorate in longevity, he delves into the fascinating world of healthgevity, and equipping readers with tools to thrive in an age of extended lifespans

Read the HYPERSCALE transcript.

[00:37] Briar: Today on Hyperscale, I've got Dana Marduk. He's a futurepreneur with a doctorate of longevity, CEO at Future Company, and founder of Healthgevity Center and The Futurepreneur Society. Join us as we explore the challenges faced by entrepreneurs today. We speak about the future and why we should be excited rather than fearful. 

[01:06] Briar: Hi everyone and welcome to Hyperscale. Today I've got Dana joining me on the show. Welcome to Hyperscale Dana.

[01:15] Dana: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

[01:17] Briar: So Dana and I have just been catching up because we have quite a few mutual friends. I was saying that I was hanging out with futurist David Wood in Dublin. I've met José Cordeiro, who Dana translated his book for him. And today on the show we're going to be talking about all aspects of longevity, humans and machines. What a futurepreneur is. All of my favorite topics.

[01:44] Dana: Amazing.

[01:46] Briar: So tell us about a futurepreneur. You've obviously written a book about it. How did you come across this term, futurepreneur? What does it mean to you?

[01:59] Dana: Well, actually if you just give me some time, because it's both my story and at the same time the futurepreneurship. So I think it takes like a few minutes, but I really want to make it clear because this is for the first time that I talk about it in this way. So I want to explain it very well so that people exactly know what it is and how actually it formed because there's a very interesting story behind it. So, first of all, the first time that I sold something, it was when I was seven. So I started selling foods and local foods and this kind of thing. I really liked selling things. And actually it was not about just money, it's about communication. It's about ideas. Sometimes I had some crazy ideas, and I just started with that when I was a child. So I can say somehow I was an entrepreneur and entrepreneurship is in my blood. So I started, but it was not professional until like 15 years ago that I started my first company. But I came across a lot of problems in my businesses, because I had different businesses.

[03:05] Dana: And one of them was changes that are happening in the society. Of course 15 years ago changes were not as exponential as today, but still I had some businesses. I failed in them and I started thinking then why it is that? And just in my life, I had three major failures, which of course all of the three was out of my control. One, it was in 2008 with global crisis that we had and then 2015 when ISIS attacked Iraq, because I had my business here in Iraq, and then in 2020 with Covid. So three times I had a big fail, and I started I can say literally from zero. So this is actually about entrepreneurship, that everybody knows what it is. So I'm not going to explain it more, but futurepreneurship is a system that I have built during these years, and of course, learning from a lot of people that I have to mention. One of them is Peter Diamandis, which has been my hero in business and this new notion of future partnership. 

[04:09] Dana: So actually I found out that future and thinking about future, anticipating in business is so much important. So I became a member of World Future Studies Federation in 2017, and I started learning more and more about the future academically. So future entrepreneurship is a system based on seven pillars. So one by one, we'll talk about it. The first one, which definitely is the traditional entrepreneurship, which has some basics and foundations for doing business, which everybody knows about it but the second pillar is future thinking, which is a system that can help us to anticipate future by some techniques. We can say like strategy foresight, scenario planning, backcasting and let's say a lot of techniques that we use, so we can actually use these techniques in our business.

[05:03] Dana: And this was one of those important part that I thought that we need a new notion. We need a new system for entrepreneurs. And at the same time for futurists, because futurists know a lot about the future, but unfortunately most of them are not as practical as entrepreneurs. So the second pillar is future thinking, which I mix the methodologies with that traditional entrepreneurship. But later, I found that even this is not enough, because, in business we have a very classical example of the Nokia failure, which they failed because they could not anticipate the exponential world ahead. So they had a big fail of $7 billion because they could not anticipate that the GPS is not going to be a device in the car, but an application on the mobile. 

[05:49] So I became a member of let's say OpenExO community, which Salim Ismail and Peter Diamandis wrote a book about it, exponential organizations in 2015. And I started thinking about this new business model, which all of us are familiar with let's say Uber and Airbnb as the classical example of this. So exponential organization also is a system that helps company to grow 10X faster by using 11 attributes. But anyway, you can ask me any question when I'm explaining, because I want to be clear for everyone. So 11 attributes, we have the most important one, which is MTP, massive transformative purpose. Something very different from the traditional entrepreneurship, because in entrepreneurship we have vision and mission, which is mostly about the company and its goals, not about the people. But in MTP, we are all thinking about people and the impact that we can have on the world. And then we have another 10 attributes that I'm not going to talk about it here. Later everyone can go to the links that we will share and learn more about it. 

[06:57] But I found that any business that is not going to be based on exponential organization business model will not survive after 2030. Actually [07:06 inaudible] has a nice saying that says all companies by 23, whether there will be exponential organizations or failed organizations. So we need this shift. So I just mixed it as the third pillar of futurepreneurship. And later I found out actually it was just with the rising of AI that now almost in every business is a very important part that we cannot neglect AI and other technologies in all the businesses. So the fourth pillar is AI and the whole other technologies, which they're emerging. We have a lot of technologies like 3D printer, IOT, AR, VR, quantum computing, DNA computer. Actually we have a lot of technologies that in the next few years they're going to converge and change almost everything.

[07:58] Dana: So this was the fourth pillar. And then in the companies, I learned it, we need to be training our people. But Gen Z, as the most let's say, well-known employees of the new companies, they are not going to learn like what we used to learn. They learn through gaming and having fun with the new actual style. So I mixed words of education and entertainment and created edertainment, which is the fifth pillar of futurepreneurship. And what does that mean? Entertainment is a system that is using gamifying. It's using the interactive, actually system that can teach employees and the company and make it update, but not in a traditional way, just by playing games and engaging the employees in a game that they can learn more and more and keep themselves updated. And then later, I had hundreds of seminars talking to hundreds of entrepreneurs, and what I found was that they are spending so much time and money on their business, but at the same time, they're neglecting their health.

[09:07] Dana: They make a lot of money, huge money, but later in the age of 60 or 70, they have to spend all those money to bring back that health, which they never can have the same health. So I asked them that, okay, how much do you really spend on your health? And the answer was less than one person or even zero, nothing. That's why I thought that we need something about health and longevity. So the sixth pillar of futurepreneurship is healthgevity. Again, mix of two words, health and longevity, and why I created this work, because when you talk about longevity, some people misunderstand and they think, okay, why do I want a life, let's say 100 years, but I'm sick? So longevity does not have that, let's say, cannot convey actually that meaning that, no, it's not about living long, it's about living a healthy life. So I mixed it and now healthgevity is a system itself, which already I have written a book about it, which is based on 12 pillars, and it has a long story, later we can talk about it. 

[10:06] Dana: And finally, the seventh pillar of futurepreneurship is community. Actually, during all these years, I learned that no company can survive, especially now in this, a world that everybody is connected without having and building a community. And now we have different softwares and tools that can help us to build this community around our business. So this is actually what future entrepreneurship is about. It doesn't have just one word, like an explanation, but it is based on the seven pillars. And it's totally a little bit, I can say actually complicated system, but at the same time, very useful and powerful.

[10:46] Briar: Very interesting. I've been an entrepreneur now for about eight years. And just even reflecting on my own journey as you were speaking, and I know the future is something that people find quite challenging to think about. I think it's hard enough being an entrepreneur. Yesterday I actually posted a question on Reddit in the entrepreneur community saying, hey everybody, what's the most challenging part about being an entrepreneur? And the responses I got were things around cash flow or hiring and keeping talent and things like this. And it is hard, and a lot of people were saying, everyday is a bit of a grind. And so to then add the whole future aspect into the mix, and you are saying that come the year 2030 that humanity and society is going to undergo this massive shift. And you're not the first person I've heard saying this. I've also heard the likes of José's saying stuff like this. Lots of top futurists are saying that there's going to be a massive period of shift. So where do we start I guess is the question? Like, what would you say to an entrepreneur who's listening to this, listening to the podcast and is feeling like, oh my God, the year 2030 is like just around the corner?

[12:06] Dana: Well actually, I have to be honest. And sometimes we have to send a shock to some people. For me, entrepreneurship is dead because you cannot actually navigate the complexities of the world that we are living in. We are living in some people say in a VUCA world in a volatile world on certain complex and ambiguous, and now we have even newer words we are living in a bunny world. So it cannot cope with all these changes. An entrepreneur cannot actually have a sustainable company or business without using all those tools that I use. They can, but it'll not be like 10 years later around, this is the thing. So we need a paradigm shift. We need to bring all the things into our system so that we have to go from this system of entrepreneurship, which is now shocked by a lot of changes, and go to futurepreneurship.

[13:10] Dana: We need to learn about the signals, about the trends, and we need to learn it academically, not just to hear, listen to it, or let's say read one or two articles. If you want to be a futurepreneur because I'm not really using entrepreneur anymore for me, because I used to be an entrepreneur, but I had a lot of mistakes and especially during the last few years, I found out that, no, I cannot with this mindset. You know what, for example, now you want to create a product. So you will spend some time on it, probably it'll take months two or three, but now we don't have this time. You need to do it faster because things are changing. Maybe at the time that you're working on your product or service, just in one or two months, it'll become obsolete by an AI application or something like that. So you need to see at least 10 years later, which this is not something that entrepreneurs do. They focus on the market today, and they see the needs. What is the problem? Let's solve it and let's make a business out of it. But in futurepreneurship, we think about 10 years minimum, 20 and even 30, because you cannot actually have a business if you are not using all these elements together.

[14:22] Briar: Sure. So let's think 10, 20 years in the future. Obviously AI is a massive buzzword at the moment. There's a lot of hype around it. People are talking about how to use AI in their business. You mentioned IOT and a few things like this. What other trends or technology should we be thinking about as futurepreneurs?

[14:47] Dana: Well, actually about the AIs, I think that some people are afraid of new technologies. And this is something natural because we are afraid of something that we don't know enough about it. This is an evolutionary reason. We are afraid of darkness. Why? Because we cannot see, we cannot predict at the next minute, what is going to happen. So AI, I have seen a lot of people that they're just against it. And they are afraid, even among futurists, you cannot believe. I mean there are famous futurists that they asked actually, governments and authorities to stop AI and not to allow people use it, or companies not to just develop it. Why? Because still, we don't know how powerful it is. If we as futurists, as people who care about that society, we do not use these technologies. Of course, out there, there are some bad guys, they are going to use it and develop it and misuse actually this technology. 

[15:46] Dana: So I think one of those concerns that most people talk about is about the joblessness, is about unemployment. That, okay, what will happen if AI is taking all of the jobs? But if we think like 100, 200 years ago, this is the same thing that happens from the agricultural let's say age that we passed. Like, let's say 150, 200 years ago, 98% of United States people were just farmers. And now the data says it's just 2%. So imagine how during one, two centuries, how things can change. And this is one thing, one more important thing is that we as human I believe actually we should not work. And if you look at the history, we never had like eight hours work. We had 12 and before that even 18 hours, we were just working. But with the technologies, and after the industrial revolution, we started having a system. We had one day free, let's say during the weekend. And then we had the weekend two days. And I think in the next few years, we'll have three and even four more days not to work. 

[16:56] So we should not be worried about that, but what we should be worried about is how to transform from these changes peacefully. I mean, for people, young generation, they have to think about the new jobs that are emerging. So they need to prepare themselves. For me, believe it or not, education system also is dead. I used to be a teacher, an English teacher actually for 10 years. But I have seen a lot of friends of mine that they're teaching something right now that already is obsolete. I mean, children are not going to use any of those things. So these are the, let's say threats or the fears that people have about the future and especially about AI. But I think by learning more and being prepared for it, we can have a much, much better life than before.

[17:45] Briar: So jumping into the education aspect a little bit more, and it is so fascinating to look at the toddlers of today or the five, six-year-olds. Those kids are fascinating. They know that way around the iPad, like the back of their hand, there are over 60 million daily users on Roblox. Like, that number is staggering. And a lot of those are the younger generation, like these kids are growing up as digital natives. I actually saw a Tamagotchi in the toy store the other day. It reminded me of my childhood. But obviously there are quite sort of different aspects. We were also out playing in the mud and doing things like this. But what kind of things do we need to be teaching kids these days? Like, how can we change the schooling system and not even just for the really young kids of today? What about like the universities? What about when people graduate after doing a four year degree? Are we teaching the right things at university?

[18:44] Dana: Right. Great question. Well, actually, unfortunately, one of those societal system that has not changed in the past hundreds of years is education system. If you go to the school still, you see it's the same system. Actually, I go to school because I go to schools and I teach children about future thinking, about futurepreneurship. And as you say, they are amazing. They're so smart but unfortunately, the teachers which also they are a victim of the system. They are teaching children something that is not useful at all. And when I ask them what do you want to become when you grow up? They don't say a teacher, doctor, engineer anymore. No. They say, I want to become an influencer. They say, I want to become a YouTuber. They say, I want to become a futurist even when I talk about this topic.

[19:34] Dana: So they are so different. What I think we need to teach them, the most important thing. There are some practical skills actually, which is more important than memorizing things because this is so stupid to give them to memorize something that already is out there. I mean, why do I need to memorize, I don't know, different topics from history, even from mathematics, physics, when it's out there we need to teach them critical thinking. We are in a world that actually for the first time, we have more data than we can actually understand and then perceive. So now we have to teach them how to have a critical thinking, how to let's say see the world and some practical let's say skills like foresight, like this futurepreneurship. And I teach them, I teach them about money, which, in 10 or 20 years money also will disappear.

[20:30] Dana: I mean, we are not going to talk about money because I personally, I believe in abundance. So I believe that out there, there are so much resources that is enough for everybody, but the problem is the distribution. So for children, I think we need to teach them like 10 or 20 years later how the world will be. Because in 10 years things will change so much that the things we are teaching them today will not be useful anymore. That's why I say that futurepreneurship and talking about the future is the most important thing we can teach them because our new generation actually, they belong to the future generation and they have to learn how to create the future. Just one last thing about this, when I was a child, there was no internet. There was nothing absolutely. And I used to go to the libraries for reading sci-fi books, from Arthur Sinclair and Isaac Asimov and Jules Verne, all of this.

[21:30] Dana: But sometimes it took me three months to get a book because it was just one version of it. And imagine now how things has changed that people, I mean, children, they have access to everything and ChatGPT and AI, which is so important. Some people say, no, we should not let children use them at school. And this is so terrible actually, because this is a tool that can make them smarter to think better. But unfortunately still we see a lot of problems at school that schools are just rejecting the new signals that we already see is happening.

[22:10] Briar: It's like when I was at school, they used to make us use the dictionary to look things up rather than Googling on the internet. And I can't tell you the last time I physically opened a physical dictionary. I'm always googling things on the internet to find my information and things like this. So I think it's always like this, it's as you said before about when humans went from working in the industrial age to working behind their laptops, everyone was so worried about losing jobs, but there wasn't necessarily jobs lost. It was just a different kind of work moving forward. And I think the same when it comes to kids these days and learning. Very interesting what you said about the creator aspect, or when you ask children these days what they want to be when they grow up.

[22:55] Briar: And certainly interesting talking about critical thinking. I was having this conversation with someone recently about how I think critical thinking is really lost these days. I think it's very few and far between where we actually sit in silence and we actually experiment with our thoughts and explore creativity. I think so often when we go to sit down and do nothing these days, we just end up picking up our phone and having a browse and doing nothing. But that's hardly giving ourselves perhaps the empty space that we need to be thinking critically about things. Are you worried about how society is constructed in this sense?

[23:39] Dana: Well, no, actually, maybe, my friends say you are over-optimistic about the future, but I don't say there are not dark sides of the future. Of course there are. But the thing is, which one would you choose? Okay, the dark end, let's say scary side of it, or the bright side of it. That's why for my company, I have chosen the motto, and I say creating bright futures today, we need to create it. Future is not something that we wait for. Actually, it used to be, we didn't know what is going on let's say 10, 20 years later. And we were just waiting, most of the time we were not active in shaping the future. This is something that we need to teach our children actually, that they have to be able to understand this, that future is something that they create today by the choices they make today, by using the technologies.

[24:32] Dana: And it is not something that society is going to, of course, if you don't do anything, yes, there are a lot of futures that other people will create for you. You need to go and work for them. But you need to create your future. So I'm not worried about it, but of course there are some concerns, which is like privacy, life security, in terms of children, of course we should care about all of the things, but the way is not to stop it. We need to find a way. Otherwise we are just clearing, let's say, the question itself at the first place, which is not going to work.

[25:06] Briar: I agree with you. I think when we think about the future, we should always remember that with change comes opportunity. And you're exactly right. We've got two choices. We can either go out and embrace it and actively create a life for ourselves or guide the life around us, or we can sit back on the couch and, just let life pass us by and play a more passive role in it. And I think this is applicable to, if we're talking about the future, or even if we're talking about people building businesses or deciding to move overseas or pick up that hobby or pick up that book or take action of some sort. I'm a transhumanist. I think the whole concept of learning about tech and guiding our future, and I think it makes a lot of sense.

[25:54] Dana: Yeah, exactly. Actually you talked about the transhumanism. I have some friends, I talk to them sometimes, and I tell them, I think still we are not a human. I mean, if you look at thousands of years of history from hunter-gatherers, and then let's say Neanderthals and then we had different let's say steps of evolution. And now still, I think if we look at like 200 years later and look back at today, they say, oh, wow, people still, they actually were driving cars or I don't know, they were using the phone. This was so old-fashioned because in 200 years, everything is going to change. And even I think we will not exist in this physical body because this is a trend. This is something that, we are becoming the robots, they are becoming us somehow. So this is going to happen sooner or later. We cannot stop it. We have to embrace it. We have to see the challenges and just try to have this transition as peacefully as possible. Otherwise, we are just behind all of these trends. And it'll be terrible actually because we need to be proactive, not just let's say wait on something or let's say the future happens to you.

[27:14] Briar: It's interesting when people try and tell me that they don't think that men will merge with machine. I love turning around and pointing out to them that the glasses they're wearing is a kind of technology or tool or people out there have cochlear implants or an artificial hip to get by. And, these are still very much early days of how we can be integrating how we can use tech for good. When do you think we will start to see this more merge of man with machine? And I more so think perhaps, when I think about our iPhones that we hold, we carry this thing around in our hand, or we're constantly on our laptop, entering data into Excel for like eight hours a day. That kind of stuff is quite stupid really which is obviously going to come away with artificial intelligence. How do you see this, this happening?

[28:09] Dana: Well, let's go back thousands or even millions of years ago when the first actually, let's say human-like ape, they started using the first stick to get down a fruit or something like that. It was a tool. Marshall McLuhan says that we are building the tools and tools are building us back. This is so true because when we use a tool it actually gives us the power to go beyond our abilities that we have right now. So imagine during the history, we have used, let's say fire and stone, and then different tools. All of them were technologies at their time. So with every tool that we are using, we are becoming smarter, more powerful, and then creating a better life for us. So this is the trend that we have seen during the history.

[29:01] Dana: So if we see that it is not going to be like that. I think it'll be a very pessimistic way of seeing this. Because imagine that like tens of thousands of years ago, human being still did not have all this knowledge and abilities. Still, we were doing fine. But now based on the Peter Diamandis book Abundance, we are living in the most peaceful world actually during the history, even though there are a lot of wars around us. But we need to see, compare it actually with the population, with the time. And we see that no, still we are living in the best time. The mobile that we are using right now has the same power as the whole system that sent human actually to the moon. So it is abundance of the, let's say, tools. But what I see is already it is happening.

[29:55] Dana: We are using let's say wearables, smartwatch, smartphones. It's about the steps, the next step. And we don't know exactly what happens because it's not overnight. It's a spectrum. It's going to be slowly, but probably 10 or 20. It's not about the time. I really don't think about the time. I think how we can, as I told you before, have this transformation peacefully without conflict between people and cultures. Because most of the time when you talk about transhumanism and about becoming, let's say a robot-like men, people are just rejecting the idea first because they don't know anything about it. Second, because they are afraid because they don't know what is going to happen. But this is not something that we decide whether we want it or not. This is something that is going to happen. And it's only a matter of time. And of course, like every other technology, there will be a lot of challenges, a lot of problems. But I think human being is smarter than that and can tackle all of those problems.

[31:07] Briar: Do you worry sometimes that this technology might cause a divide that we might end up with, say, the haves and then the have-nots?

[31:19] Dana: Well, yeah, the most important thing that I'm worried about, but being worried doesn't mean that I'm negative about it. It's actually a kind of futurepreneurial mindset. When you are afraid of something, the first thing that you have to do is go and learn more about it. Because I told you the fear is coming from let's say ignorance, that you don't know something. So let's go and learn more about it, see what are the capabilities and dangers, and then try to find a solution for that. And let me tell you something like 120, 130 years ago when we had the first cars in our streets, a lot of people could not accept it. You know why? They said, oh, this iron machine is going to kill a lot of people. They are so fast, they are so dangerous. And some people even protested against it. But later now, nobody's saying that the car should not be used in the street. Even actually, we are thinking about better cars, like electric cars or driverless cars.

[32:20] Briar: Or the cyber truck. I saw the cyber truck coming out yesterday. I got so excited. I was like, should I trade my R8 for a cyber truck?

[32:29] Dana: Yeah, exactly. So this is the thing that our brain cannot sometimes fathom these changes that are happening in the society. Because our brain actually, the system of our brain is like that. Our brain has evolved to pay more attention to the dangers. And it was good because evolutionary speaking, if we were not worried about let's say a noise in the jungle, or let's say a tribe that is coming, probably we would be killed. And then we went to extinct, but our brain is just like that. And still, let me tell you something, we are living in 2023, but our brain and body still is the same as millions of years ago. So this is so important to know that. So we need to teach our brain that no, we are not in danger that much that you think. So just calm down and trying to find a solution. 

[33:22] Dana: So yeah, I think the first thing is to learn about something new that is coming. But I have to say this one that I forgot. What really concerns me is about the security and privacy. These two are important for me, because now we are using applications, even Google. I just got a message yesterday from Google that says, last year this time you were in that restaurant and you were ordering this. Oh my God, I didn't remember that. It's not something bad because it can help me to make life easier, actually, sometimes in my choices. But still there are some downsides with it. But I think privacy also will be something that in the future, people will not talk about it because everything will be so transparent. Or maybe we can have our privacy through technologies like blockchain but still, we don't know.

[34:13] Briar: I'm really happy you've got such a, I guess, more positive mindset when it comes to the future because you're right, there's so much doom and gloom out there. It is very hard with the media. The media obviously make their money off fear. Fear drives clicks. Clicks create revenue. Humans weren't meant to be privy to this much information, and it's constantly on our iPhones, like we just can't get away from it. So it is very easy, I guess to get sucked into the algorithm and to get into this very scarcity sort of mindset. I read a really cool quote the other day, and it was about how children learn to walk, not by their fear of falling down, but by their curiosity of standing up. And I thought that's so true. They've got this very childlike mindset. They're curious. They're not worried about falling on the ground. They're just kind of like, oh, let me hop up and let me do this. And I think we always have a lot we can learn from kids these days as well.

[35:14] Dana: Exactly. I have to tell you something here, which is actually so terrible, and I wish we could change it. If you see most of the movies and sci-fi movies, especially about the future, I can say 95% of them are just talking about the negative consequences of different technologies, and it'll affect actually these new generation. And there was a survey that I don't know where exactly, but they asked Gen Zs about the future and how do you feel about future? What do you think about the future? And more than 59%, they said, we are worried about it. We are afraid of the future. And this culture of the negativity, especially in sci-fi books, because I don't remember we had this. When I was reading sci-fi books, let's see, when I was 12, 13, 14, was like going to the moon by Jules Verne.

[36:04] Dana: They were thinking about going to the moon. It was so positive for us, or Isaac Asimov or let's say [36:10 inaudible]. There are some of course negative aspects, but I think we should really bring this culture of being positive in even our sci-fi because we are creating those futures for our kids. Marshall McLuhan again says that we will become what we behold. We will become what we think about. So if all this negativity, especially in science and future is just for new children like this, I think their future will be like that. So we need to really change that. And I started myself, I am writing a novel sci-fi, which is so futuristic, but at the same time, so positive, but of course with some challenges that are negative. And let's say the name is Parallel Universe until now, so that people are living in different worlds, but at the same time their future exactly depends on the way that they think today. So I think we need this culture more and more in the society.

[37:14] Briar: I think that's interesting. And I think people shouldn't view challenges as being something negative, because one might argue that challenges are what make life interesting. Of course, there are lots of challenges that the human society could do with getting away with, but if everything was just flowers and roses all the time, then we might potentially lose our purpose or lose the excitement.

[37:40] Dana: Actually, we lose the ability to act, when you are stressed based on, let's say, our evolutionary system. When there is a fear of something, we have just two systems, fight or flight. There is no other thing like thinking, like pondering, like, making logic out of this event. We have to fight or flight. That's it. That's why the children now, they are somehow frustrated when they are thinking about the future. They are bombarded with a lot of negative things about the future. Rarely I see a really nice sci-fi let's say movie or books that I can go and I say, wow, that was amazing. It gave me an idea to create a better future and how to actually confront with the challenges that will be there. And this is something we really, really need more.

[38:34] Briar: Well, we're looking forward to reading it when it comes out. You'd mentioned before about privacy. You are right. It's a big thing. I once downloaded my Facebook data and I was absolutely shocked about how much Facebook had on me, but at the same time, I wasn't shocked because what did I expect? I think we've just come to assume that our data is out there, everything knows everything on us, but what should we be worried about in the future? Or not even worried, but what should we start to think about and prepare for in the future when it comes to data and privacy?

[39:15] Dana: Well, actually we can talk about it from different perspectives, but I think the most important thing is societal values, what we know ourself as human, being kind to others, not making harms to other people. This is so much important that we really need to just focus on whether there are some technologies out there, we need to see how we can use these technologies to keep this value, this is so important and teach it to children. These are the values that probably not totally change, but maybe during the years they will change, but change for the better. But as you said, exactly, privacy is something that we are all worried about, but I think there will be some solution. Just as I said, blockchain is something that until now we know how we can keep our information very, very private.

[40:08] Dana: But there is one thing more, let me tell you, let's be honest with each other, when I post a photo of myself, a lot of people post their very, very private photos. When you do that, how do you expect to have privacy? You already are sharing your privacy. What Google can do or any other platforms and companies and social medias, if I'm not sharing those private moments of my life with them, of course there is also another, let's say side of it that sometimes you cannot avoid it, like you have to turn on your location when you want to navigate the city or travel or something like that. So anyway, you have to [40:52 inaudible] this a part of your privacy, but you will get a lot instead. I mean Google can help you to navigate to find the best places to warn you from a lot of things out there.

[41:07] Dana: So that's just a trade-off. You give something, you get something. But some people I want to mention this. This is important. Some people are worried about inequality and the access of this kind of information. Yes, it is actually we should be worried about. But finally I think we will have so much abundance that we should not be worried about it. Because imagine it's just like 30 years ago, mobile phone, that now almost everyone has, at least not even a smart one, but one, it was something so scared that almost let's say just maybe 5% of the people in the world, they had it. And now it's just ubiquitous. So all other technologies, some people are worried about that we are not going to actually have them or access to them. I think it's not valid because everything is going to be cheaper, faster, better, more accessible, and it all depends on us how we use it.

[42:12] Briar: When you were talking about the photo aspect earlier, I was thinking to this piece of content I saw about how people can now take photos and manipulate them obviously into deep fakes, into videos. They can take a child's head and put it on someone else's body doing really nasty things like this. And it's just interesting to see how things can be so manipulated now. They can even take someone's voice and then use that to call. They can take a child's voice and use that to call their mom and pretend that they're in danger and get them to send these person's money on WhatsApp. So I think there's a lot of privacy and security things that we certainly need to be mindful of when going into this new world.

[43:03] Dana: Exactly. That's true. But let me tell you something. I remember it was 25 or 30 years ago really when the first time I used Photoshop, it was just new and some of my friends say, wow, the world is changing because now you can manipulate the pictures exactly the same. You can put the head of someone else and put it somewhere else or in the location, you can change the background. And I remember people were afraid, they said that, oh my God, the world is different. How are you going to trust your eyes? It happened like that, but after a while it went away because we had better technologies to know whether it is Photoshop or no. So I think in the beginning of every technology, yes, we have this, and it's so true. It's there. We cannot deny it, but we have to think about it, that it is just the beginning. 

[43:53] Dana: Definitely later on, we'll have more advanced technologies that they actually can track all of the things and keep our privacy. But I'm not saying that there is no danger of these technologies. There are, but I say that the way that we look at it, let me tell you something. As Anthony Robbin says, the quality of your questions actually creates the quality of your life. If there is something dangerous, like let's say a deepfake technology, the question is how am I going to use it for myself? Or how am I going to learn about it so that I'm not manipulated by other people? So it's a matter of the question, not just for the personal person, maybe for someone who has a company and working in this industry. So still I say that there could be companies, there could be people that can actually mitigate these risks that are there already, but still we have to focus on the brights of the technology and how it can help to teach our children, the new generation and tackle a lot of global grand challenges, which I think it would be much easier with having these technologies than not having them.

[45:05] Briar: If I was to ask you, what is the number one piece of tech that you are most excited about, out of anything?

[45:14] Dana: Wow. Alright. Actually from my background, like 15 years ago, that I started learning more about health and longevity. And of course, before that, when I was a child, the first book that I read about immortality was The Immortalist from Alan Harrington that he starts the book like this, death is an imposition on human being and no longer acceptable. Something that always, I've been thinking during the last, let's say 20 years, has been that death and actually later with these technologies, how to, let's say stop it. Well, at first I talk about the aging and disease because today actually, we had a discussion with some guys that this is the first cause of death worldwide, 100,000 people every single day. So before I finish my sentence, every single second, one person is dying from aging and other aging related diseases. So just in few minutes, hundreds of people. 

[46:15] Dana: So why I'm excited about this, let's say the last conference that we went in Saudi Arabia, the Evolution Foundation, XPRIZE $101 million to actually reverse aging. This is something that I'm so passionate about, because losing a human being is a disaster. And the thing is, now we can do something about it, and of course, in the next 10, 20 years, we can do more and more about it. So keeping human being alive and healthy, I can say healthy and alive, and having a better society by eradicating a lot of these diseases is my passion and what I'm working on.

[46:58] Briar: When I told some people that I wanted to try and live forever, or at least prolong my lifespan, it was fascinating to hear the kind of negative feedback I got. Some people were like, oh, you have a massive ego and you need to die to make way for other people on the planet and just all sorts of things, to be honest with you. What's your thoughts when people are challenged by what you're saying, what's your thoughts with how do we start to educate people that perhaps this could really be a viable option? Because you're essentially asking someone to change their worldview. Like, this is someone who's been brought up, who has discovered perhaps as an older child or a teenager that one day they're going to die, like, that's horrifying.

[47:54] Dana: Well, actually, I start again, because as a futurist, you cannot understand the future very well if you don't see the big picture, this is so much important. That's why again, let's go back to entrepreneurship. They see just a part of the realities of the business world. But in a futurepreneurship world, which I don't say is perfect, but until now, it sees the seven important aspects and elements of doing business. So it is just seeing a bigger picture than that. Now, for this one, I tell them that, okay, imagine let's say thousands of years ago, still people, the biggest quest of human being I think has been immortality. Even take a look at all the religions, all ideologies. Okay they say, you'll die in this world, but you are going to have an eternal life, after life. All civilizations, all cultures, religions, everyone actually single one believes in that. Even, some people who believe in reincarnation, just changing your transformation from this body to the other one. 

[49:00] Dana: So human being, I think, always has had this, but I think our problem is only in the approach, how we want to become immortal, whether you want to die and maybe later in the afterlife, you just live again forever, or maybe we can do something about it in this world and live forever. So when I see like that, they think, oh, yeah, you are right. Actually, all the cultures are talking about it. But the problem is, as I told you, they don't see the big picture. They will get a lot of questions coming to their mind. They say, for example, they think about the lack of resources, the population, the technology, all of the things. They cannot actually digest all of these information, which we have to explain to them, for example, about the population is very easy, based on the, let's say you and all the let's say data, until 2100, the population will stop in maybe 11 or 12 billion, and then we'll decrease. 

[50:00] Dana: So we are not going to have a world with 20, 30 billion people on earth or when you talk about the lack of resources and give them the resources that we have right now, and how technology can work on it, like water. Just a few years ago, everybody was talking about water, the next World War Three will be on water. But today, nobody's talking about that. We have desalination. Saudi Arabia is one of those countries that has the biggest resources that they are just turning the salt water of the ocean to the drinking water. So imagine 10 years later what will happen. So I think we have to understand their feeling, because I used to feel or think like that, but later I change. But still, I think we have to share that we as human are precious. Our life is precious, and we have to try to keep it as healthy and as alive as possible.

[50:57] Briar: So I was very lucky to go to the Dublin Longevity Conference and meet a lot of these longevity experts who are doing some incredible things in this space. Obviously, you've got the likes of David Sinclair, and Dr. Aubrey de Grey trying to solve aging at a more molecular or cellular level. And then of course, you've got things such as like nanotech or maybe we download our mind to a cloud or perhaps we freeze ourselves with cryonics. There are quite a few different possibilities, I guess to how we might live longer or forever.

[51:33] Dana: Exactly. From my perspective, actually, I think, as Ray Kurzweil and Terry Grossman, they have written in the book Fantastic Voyage. They say, if you want to live forever, you have to live long enough to live forever. So first we need to keep this body alive and healthy, and let's see, in the next 20, 30, 40 years, what will happen. But I personally don't think that this body is capable of living more than 150 years because we have some biological limitations. And no matter how much we want to keep it alive, I don't say it's impossible because I'm totally about immortality, whether it's physical or digital or anything, but I see it as a little bit difficult. And there are a lot of limitations. You have to eat and you have to supply this body. And of course, there are dangers of a lot of things that can happen to your body. It's not only about the aging and diseases. 

[52:29] Dana: So I think I myself prefer digital immortality when we upload our brain, and I think this will happen. Even Michio Kaku has talked about it in his book, that we will have that third civilizations that we will be just energy. Our consciousness is going to other let's say galaxies and even universes. So I think this is gonna happen, and it's so fascinating. It never scares me actually. I'm so passionate about it, and I think it'll happen. It's just a matter of time.

[53:02] Briar: I was speaking to a gentleman recently about consciousness, and what is consciousness? Where is it? It's such a fascinating topic because I don't think there's been, well this guy has got 40 years’ experience in the field, but it's confusing when you're looking and doing research on consciousness, like you get so many different responses and things. And I did ask him what would happen if we uploaded our consciousness into the machine.

[53:29] Dana: Yeah. Actually, every time I see consciousness or the neuroscience, like quantum physics. I mean, it is something so complicated that even scientists, maybe they really don't know about it. So if we say we understand it, it's not true. Yes, consciousness is the most complicated thing, but I think one day we'll know about it, just like the DNA that we have, which is one of the most complex actually parts of let's say life. And until just 30 years ago, we didn't know anything about it. But imagine that now we have sequence, whole genome. We know about it. It took $30 billion to sequence the first one but now only just a couple of hundreds of dollars. And I think these technologies will help us to understand what the consciousness is and how we can keep it actually alive. This is not something possible. It just needs more time, more research, and just needs maybe 10 or 20 years from now.

[54:30] Briar: So do you think in 20 years, maybe not the first person to do it, but do you think that you would sign up to have your brain uploaded to the cloud?

[54:40] Dana: Of course, even if it would be here right now. I would just do it right now because I think this is something that finally we are going to do it. But yeah, it's difficult for some people because again, it's a transformation from this body to something new and unknown, we don't know. Let me tell you something. I think it like this, that we were living in the caves, just like, let's say 12,000, 15,000 years ago, our ancestors were living in the caves, but the first person who left the cave had no idea what is going on out there. And then we had the first civilization of let's say, agricultural civilization, which totally, the lifestyle, everything changed. Even our biology changed, even our shape, everything changed. And I think this is not the matter of if we want to do it or not, or going to space, let's say living in other planets. This is not something that we think whether we should do it or not, it'll be done finally. It's just a matter of time. And of course, why not? It's all about immortality.

[55:53] Briar: Do you not worry about getting stuck on the Earth forever and ever? Do you think you'll get tired? Sometimes when I ask people, they're like, oh, I'm so exhausted. Maybe they're in their seventies or something like this, and they're like, Briar when you get to my age, you'll be ready. And I'm thinking, will I and why? What brings you to this point where you're exhausted and you're ready for the next stage? 

[56:22] Dana: Well, I think some people of course say that because in their 70 or 80, if they are not healthy enough, definitely, our biology will affect our brain and vice versa. But what is important is the mindset. Actually in my book let's say Healthgevity journey one pillar of Healthgevity is longevity mindset. This is so much important. If the age is a number for you, and of course, until like 20, 30 years, we'll find a way to keep this body at least not to get older. But it's all about the mindset, the philosophy of your life. Some people tell me, how long do you want to live? And I say, forever. And they say, really? What do you want to do? Won't you be like, let's say get bored about all of these years that you have? And I don't think so, at least until now that I am, let's say chronologically 43, I have a plan for my next 200 years. I have so much to do.

[57:17] Briar: What's the plan? Tell us what the plan is, what's next in a hundred years’ time? 

[57:23] Dana: Exactly. What's next? I'm so passionate about the life itself because you are learning, you are just communicating everything. There are new things and you want to enhance your skills and you want to learn more. You want to share what you have with other people and seeing that other people are enhancing their life, what is a better joy than this? And this is so amazing that I don't think I ever get bored from it.

[57:47] Briar: I think it would be interesting thinking into the future about what you might do. And I think that people would find another life to live. For instance, say you are like a CEO in this life. So I'm a CEO, I run multiple businesses and have quite a large team and split my time between New York and Dubai. I think that if I was going to live forever, and I reach a certain point, I might like to become like a painter in my next life, or a chef, or just do baking or something so different from what I do today. I think that that would be quite fun, that kind of variation of living this second or third life, so to speak.

[58:35] Dana: Yeah, exactly. And even in this life in the next few years, I'd really love to experience being someone else, as you said. I want to spend one or two years just being a musician, learning a new let's say instrument, or let's say being a traveler, being a chef, painter, singer, I don't know or sport person, because all of these I think are parallel universes, just that we experience one or two of them, not more than that. But if we can experience others, we'll become more and more and nothing is more exciting than this. And one more thing, for just like 100 years ago, the average life expectancy was like 40, 45 years. And if you ask someone that if you could leave 80 or 85, what would you do with your life? Probably would say, oh, I will get bored, because 40 years was too much.

[59:23] Dana: But now if you ask someone who is just like 80, maybe he has the same answer, like, okay, in the next 80 years, like up to 160, I really don't know what to do. But it's all about changing the world. When you have no idea how the world is going to change, probably, yeah, you don't like to live more than that. But when you see the possibilities, especially, everytime I just tell my friends that life has its difficulties, but the first 100 years is the most difficult. And after that, everything will be easy. So I think people will change their mind when they think more positive about the future and it's not only about thinking it's about understanding. And then it's all about the philosophy of their life goals and what they want to share, how they want to impact the world. So for me, it's all exciting.

[1:00:16] Briar: I think we'll have to rethink and retirement, won't we? Because at the moment people are so used to working until 65, 70 and then using that money to retire. But if people are living to say 160 years old, then that's a lot more life that they have to have essentially saved for. But I guess a counter argument to that just knowing the longevity experts and people I speak to in this space is someone like José especially would say, oh, nanotechnology, that'll make you younger so you can keep working. I'm trying to do his accent. I've absolutely butchered it. I love José. But what's your thoughts about this topic?

[1:01:01] Dana: Well, there is a nice saying. It says that human being works in order not to work. Actually, this is our life. We work until a time that we want to do anything else and just enjoy life. But what I see, the way I see the work is different. Work should be something that you enjoy so that you never think that you are working. You think that you are just enjoying. And actually, this is what, in our recent trip with Jose, we had it, I found that this man is not working actually at all. He is absolutely enjoying every second, everything that he's doing, talking to people, communicating, and so energetic that even, it was like 12, 1:00 AM and still he was energetic, sending some emails, reading in 2:00 AM and that was amazing. You know why? Because he does not think that he's working. He thinks that he's playing, playing a game, and life is a game. 

[1:01:55] Dana: So this is something, of course, I know that not everyone has this chance to let's say, enjoy their work, but I used to be the same. I've been doing a lot of different jobs and know that okay, I was not enjoying that much. But again, I try to find something interesting in that job that makes me more energetic about it. But finally, as you said, if we live longer, then finally we can do something that we really, really enjoy. And I think after that, it's not working. It's just enjoying life.

[1:02:27] Briar: Well, I think today's been amazing. Thank you so much for sharing all of your insights with myself and, and the listeners of the show.

[1:02:34] Dana: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. It was so amazing to have you, and I hope to be in some other conferences and talk more about these topics.

[1:02:43] Briar: That would be great. And if people want to buy your book, I'm guessing they can find it online on Amazon.

[1:02:49] Dana: Alright, let me, if we have time, just one minute tell you something about my books, which is different. So I have to show you, this is the color of my book and this is the back of it. So I can show you the book like this, but if you see, it's not a book, it's just the one a four, because I don't believe in printing book anymore. So I have to mention this, that you cannot talk about future but using the old, let's say tools. I'm talking about the future here, how can I use the papers for it? Because in just few months, there will be so new things that the book will be obsolete and meaningless. So what I have done is actually a different thing.

[1:03:24] Dana: First of all, this book is going to be totally digital. So it can be, let's say accessible by PDF or the audio book. And later I'm going to create an application for that which we integrate AI into it. So you can ask and talk to this book. It's not just a book, actually. It's a friend that you can talk to and even you can comment on it. And every month we update it, we send new notification, whether it is data, it's a video, or it's a new topic about it. So this is a book that is going to live forever. It's a book that is just getting updated. And so this is something that we are working on. And actually my website has all of the things danamarduk.com. People can go there, have some free parts of the book, and actually soon it'll be released in these formats that I told you. And then people can use it and then they will become a part of a community, not just a book

[1:04:23] Briar: Amazing. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

[1:04:27] Dana: Thank you so much.