#E66 Joy, Dancing, and the Science of Living Longer With Tina Woods
Read the HYPERSCALE transcript
[00:01] Tina Woods: How are you?
[00:01] Briar Prestidge: Nice to see you. I'm good. There's so much we are going to talk about, including like, oh my God. The fact that you went so viral recently.
[00:12] Tina Woods: Lots of money is being made in chronic diseases. And I have to say pharma is one of them. You know what, everyone has a story and actually how they engage with us. Everyone has a story about what life means for them and actually what their health means for them. So I think loneliness is a bigger killer than smoking. And I think the West are kind of a bit behind the curve actually. So I think the whole longevity debate is going to be really driven by this growing kind of magnetism and the energy, and also optimism and this different way of thinking . It's not just about individuals anymore, it's a collective thing. And I think that is really powerful.
[00:45] Briar Prestidge: Oh, exactly. Like if you live in a world that has no joy and you're not hopeful, then that even changes like the micro decisions that you make on a daily basis. You're like, what's the point of this?
[1:01] Briar Prestidge: Hi everybody and welcome to another episode of Hyperscale and I've got a very special friend with me on the show today, Tina Woods. And we are going to be talking about all things human connectivity, longevity, how to hack our biological age. Tina has been going extremely viral in the media recently, and she's going to be telling us all about it. Welcome to the show, Tina.
[01:27] Tina Woods: Thank you for having me, Briar. It's great to be here.
[01:28] Briar Prestidge: It's always so fun to run into you. I love how we travel around the world and we're at these conferences and then it's like, oh, it's Tina, it's my friend. I love it.
[01:38] Tina Woods: No, it was great to bump into each other, but I love serendipity actually. And that's what I love about going to conferences, the randomness when you meet people. It's a great thing, which we need to get more into our lives. This random chaos element.
[01:51] Briar Prestidge: Absolutely. It does sometimes feel like our lives have become a little bit. It's almost like the same old, the algorithmic, the mundane sort of thing.
[02:01] Tina Woods: Less room for chance and serendipity and sort of yeah that kind of chaos of life, which I think is a lot of fun.
[02:07] Briar Prestidge: Yeah and we're going to be diving so much into this because Tina is also a DJ and has been doing Longevity Rave. So she's going to be telling us all about this, a DJ at 60. She started training, like it was fascinating to listen to. Tell us a bit about your background and your work in the medical, the longevity space. You've been working with Longevity cities as well.
[02:31] Tina Woods: Yes. In fact, the City of Longevity Initiative won the foresight award, people's category at the Dubai Future Forum this weekend.
[02:40] Briar Prestidge: Yes. Congratulations.
[02:42] Tina Woods: Yeah. So a little bit about my background. Well I'm always fascinated by science and studied genetics at university. I was pre-med, decided not to go down sort of the medical route just because I just realized it was just too sort of pre-programmed, the whole kind of discipline and sort of training to be a doctor. But I was always fascinated by science and I studied genetics and I finished my degree right as the Human Genome Project was kicking off. And I was really, really excited about that. And of course fast forward to the present day, the Human Genome Project, decoding the whole sort of human DNA revealed a lot of stuff about us as people and as humans. But actually what it revealed more than anything is that genetics is actually only a small part of the story.
[03:29] Tina Woods: And that's relevant because it kind of frames my whole approach to understanding human health, wellbeing and longevity with all the work that I'm doing now, which is very, very focused on system change and how do we move a very broken model of healthcare, which we really do have in most of the westernized world, where we kind of leave it too late and then we kind of go see a doctor and go to hospital when we need to be fixed. And actually, what we really need to be doing is to stay healthy and well for as long as possible to avoid seeing doctors and hospitals. So really and with the science and the technology and the evidence now, we're seeing that actually 90% of disease is actually not linked to our genetics specifically. It's actually the environment and the exposures that impact our genetics.
[04:11] So that's the kind of epigenetics piece which is really, really interesting because it's kind of showing a spotlight in all the factors in our life, the stresses, the toxins, all these things that are really, really, really dragging down our health and are actually really starting to become an economic problem. So for example, in the UK where I'm based, but also in the US for example, where you have a situation where they spend far more than any country in the world as a percentage of their GDP on healthcare. but actually we are seeing declining life expectancy. And that's crazy when you think. So there's something wrong with the system. And actually the thing that's wrong with the system and the same similar sorts of things in the UK and other parts of the world, it's based basically because we rely too much on just leaving it too late.
[04:53] It's sort of like we rely on the quick fix. We kind of get broken and then we want to be fixed. And actually what we're realizing, that's actually a really, really serious problem that we're grappling with because we have an aging demographic, and of course we have more and more chronic diseases. And that's actually literally dragging down the economies of country. So the UK is really struggling with this. We've got workforce and activity sort of dragging down the numbers in the labor market, especially with young people. So it's a really, really serious problem. So it's almost like the burning platform has really arrived in many, many shapes and forms, which is the sheer sort of socioeconomic realities of this. So a lot of my work is actually how do we actually address this?
[05:30] And it is a very, very big system change issue. So I look at it from the point of view. So I'd spent a lot of of time with my professional world, kind of working quite closely actually with pharma and biotech for about sort of 35 years or so. And then about 10 years ago, I was really interested in the impact of science and technology and data and sort of increasing information power and agency to people, to individuals and how that would change health. And so what I was really fascinated by was to kind of work out, well, how to do this from a system change perspective. So I kind of started out at the age of 52 with a blank sheet of paper. I thought, you know what, I'm going to kind of try and work on this problem.
[06:08] And didn't have a name, a brand or nothing. I was 52. Actually hitting the menopause, which is never an easy time for a lot of women. My kids were starting to think about going to university. So I kind of thought, well, maybe this is like the time to take a risk and do something really quite different. And I was kind of thinking, I want to do something that had sort of positive impact. And I could see all the vested interests that were sort of creating a real gridlock on the status quo. The system. Lots of money is being made in chronic diseases. And I have to say pharma is one of them. And of course we've got food companies. The food industry is another one. They make a lot of money making us sick.
[06:45] Obesity is driven by [06:47 inaudible] food. So we've got some really serious issues. And of course we have legacy cultural mindsets, thinking, leave it until we just need to get fixed by our doctors. So lots of very, very big things that need to be unpicked to drive system change. But this is where the role of technology is really interesting. And I know hyperscale is all about technology. So I was fascinated and became very involved in actually doing some pretty big projects in the UK. I got involved in working out the impact of AI on our NHS, our public healthcare system. And actually, this is like eight years ago when I was asked to do this very big analysis and and it catapulted me to become one of the early stage AI experts in health.
[07:27] And then I also got involved with the UK Research and Innovation Initiative, a big grand challenge program where the government were putting serious money into dealing with the challenge of the aging society. And actually what I spent a lot of time trying to do is actually turn it on its head. Actually, there is an opportunity of the aging society and actually have all the technology and the science to keep us going for longer. But we have to see it from the point of view of keeping us healthier for longer, because that's the economic piece and the economic prize. And of course that's much more fun. I mean, keep healthy for as long as possible. You get your energy, your vitality, you can keep doing things, rather than get sick and sort of depressed and all the rest of it. So actually, so it was quite interesting. That was a big kind of turning point and this is actually when we first started hearing a lot of the stuff coming out of Silicon Valley. And of course it was sort of like, hmm, all this sort of radical life extension stuff that the billionaires were all kind of funding.
[08:21] Briar Prestidge: We're going to live until 300 years old.
[08:24] Tina Woods: We're starting to hear all this sort of stuff. And actually it's interesting because COVID actually changed a lot of the thinking around that. And I think a lot of people started to realize what health is really important. We've seen the damage to the millions of people. And it was actually the older generations, elderly, people who are in poor health, who really got decimated by COVID, immune system resilience. And so that really started to change how we see longevity. And so over the years, so a lot of the work that I'm doing is actually really looking at how we can harness the science and technology of longevity to really, really deliver improvements in health and resilience and flourishing at a population health level. But to be able to do that, you have to understand what's really happening at an individual level.
[09:10] And that is the holy grail of longevity science. So we're all working. And I would say the interesting thing is that a lot of the focus was what I call in the classic kind of biomedical model, which it's one of the issues that I think the US are struggling with, and I think are a little bit behind the curve actually, because they've been very, very focused on the magic bullet, the magic cure, the pill that will enable us to live to 150 or beyond. That actually is part of the problem because we have to see it much more widely than that. And this is where the Exposome project comes on.
[09:41] Briar Prestidge: Hi everybody. I'm going to make this quick so that you can get back to enjoying the episode, but I have a really small favor to ask of you, so that we can take the podcast to the next level. By hitting follow, you not only communicate to the world that you are part of a community of big thinkers who are hungry for knowledge and fascinated by innovation, but you also help us upscale our guests and upscale our production so we can keep shaping the future by asking all the right questions.
[10:12] Tina Woods: I actually pitched the idea of the Human Exposome project. Because the exposome is something that I've been talking about for about five, six years now as a scientific framework to really understand how we need to move upstream into health prevention actually and linking in with the whole kind of longevity debate because the longevity debate, it's slightly tinged also with some real issues around how we actually talk about longevity because people think about it in very, very different ways depending on who you talk to. And I'm really interested in bringing longevity into the mainstream. So as many people as possible can benefit from all this wonderful technology. So the Exposome, it was a frame for how we were talking even about the City of Longevity work that I've been involved with since day one that it started about four or five years ago now?
[10:54] We wrote about The Lancet, which is one of the leading peer review journals, five years ago or so. And actually I was invited to sit on the Future Moonshot committee for xprize through Jamie Justice, who's a very good friend who runs the XPRIZE for Health Span, which is underway at the moment, $101 million prize. And I pitched the idea of the Human Exposome Project, because it kind of answered all the missing pieces of the puzzle that you really have to look at to really understand human health span, resilience and flourishing all the exposures in a wider environment, which no individual necessarily can control, because that's really important to understand. There's the individual agency, but then there's all the other stuff which you may not be able to do anything about. For example, air pollution or if you're really poor and you're from a socioeconomically deprived background where you don't have the resources, the knowledge or the money to be able to go to a fancy longevity clinic.
[11:46] Or if you're really stressed at work or if you're going through a divorce, or if you're a PSD or trauma, all these sorts of things aren't easy to fix sometimes. And this is the exposome, the reality of the exposome. And also things like the quality of the food that you eat, like ultra high process food. It's cheap, it's junk food. We're addicted to all this sort of stuff. So this is all the stuff that actually is a really important part of the puzzle. And it's actually probably the biggest part of the puzzle to really, really achieve health span for everybody. So that Human Exposome project, I pitched at the Xprize actually a little over a year ago. It didn't make it to the finals, but it got a lot of attention and recognition, has been something really important also to compliment the Health Span project actually.
[12:27] And then with my colleagues and scientists around the world, we did a piece that was published in Nature Medicine, again leading peer reviewed journal a few months ago back about how cities, communities, and clinics provide the perfect test beds for the Human Exposome project. I was then invited to sit on the steering committee for the Human Exposome project that was actually being incubated and then launched in Washington this year backed by Bloomberg, Johns Hopkins, Columbia, all these heavyweight academic institutions were behind it. And I'm now working with them. And actually, this is one of the reasons why I'm in Dubai speaking at the Dubai's future form event, was really looking at the UAE as being like the obvious candidate to be one of the lead test beds for the Human Exposome project.
[13:11] So that's been something that I'm very involved with. I'm speaking to areas around the world to become test bed projects for this huge international endeavor, which is going to be even bigger and more complex than the Human Genome project. It's going to be a really big deal. And actually, that's what we need to really drive the system change. Because once you have that evidence and impact and understanding what is happening at an individual level, because of course we have the quantum sensing, the AI and of course all the generative AI, the AI agents and all the rest of it. And of course systems biology and there's already a lot of research happening. Being able to understand what is happening, the impact on our individual biology, our genetics as a result of all these external exposures.
[13:53] And once you aggregate that up at sort of city level, at national level, at international and global level, I mean, countries and governments and the big money sitting in pensions and in institutional investments. They're all going to think, hang on a second, we are getting this really wrong, leaving us getting ill before we get fixed. We have to keep people healthy and well. And actually, what I find really exciting is that for those countries who've done the numbers, and I'm talking about the Middle East for example, they've done the numbers. It's like, if you keep healthy and well untill like 65, you are probably at your most product. So at the age of 65, if you're healthy and well, you'll probably be the most productive citizen on earth because you've got the knowledge, you've got your health, your vitality, you've got your wisdom, your empathy, and you can pass that down to the generations.
[14:44] You're still consuming in the economy. You're still active, you're still looking after your family. And if you can push that to 85 and this is where the longevity science is really interesting, you'll be even more productive. And that will then have huge implications on the bottom line of countries, the economics. And of course the societal impact will be huge. Your quality of life, your vitality, your energy. So that's kind of like where we really need to be. So that's what's really exciting about being here, because there's the energy and of course the climate change, of course human and planetary health are completely interconnected. Excess heat deaths from climate change, air pollution, too many cars, reliance and petrol, fueling, the atmosphere, pollution, all the rest of it.
[15:27] You have to see it as a system change thing. And you have to connect with planetary health. So that's the beauty about the Human Exposome project. And my discussions here, people get it. They think, yeah, this makes a lot of sense. And actually, the focus on community, the community and culture and social cohesion is also really important. So I think the social bit, and this is where I have a real interest in bringing the whole kind of mental health, the emotional health, the spiritual health agenda to the longevity debate, which has been really missing up until now. It's all been focused on what we're finding out in my studies and nematode worms.
[15:59] Briar Prestidge: And the supplements we're all taking.
[16:01] Tina Woods: It's all about that. As soon as there's been some study that says something extends lifespan in mice and the media get all excited. But you know what, we need to see all that stuff translating into the human system. And we are part of a living, breathing system of being part of a wider environment. So that is the next frontier of longevity. And we have to understand what makes humans thrive and tick. It's not supplements. It's like joy, happiness, purpose, meaning in our life that actually and the science is telling us that actually has far more impact at scale and also at an individual level. So the worrying, so the converse of that, and this is again, the burning platform, the converse of that is loneliness and social isolation. The disconnection that we have in this digital world is actually driving down the health of across all age groups. And particularly, which is a concern for me as a mother of three sons who are in their twenties. I can see the impact of digital dystopia and the digital world.
[16:58] Briar Prestidge: What kind of things do you see?
[17:00] Tina Woods: And of course COVID didn't help, but people living behind screens, not seeing people in the real world anymore. Even like relying on dating apps. When you're in your twenties, you don't even know yourself. So how is an algorithm going to tell you who you should be meeting? This is where the randomness and how we kind of used to do it in the old way through your family networks, your friends, through just sort of being out and about, going to clubs, the randomness, the serendipity. And this is where I think what's fascinating, and this kind of speaks a little bit to the journey that I've been on, it's like the energy of people, kind of the aura, the energy, kind of like, what you can't even like describe yet.
[17:37] And I'm hoping science may one day be able to, like what is it that brings people together in a very interesting way that you do get in ceremonies and rituals? I mean, things that we used to do in our ancestral past, being around a fire sort of dance rituals and these are really powerful things that actually, the rhythms of music, all that kind of stuff. These are the sorts of things that you miss when you're sitting behind a screen. And so I've seen, I did my first Google search right before my first son was born, and I've kind of seen them living this world as we become increasingly digitally connected. And now of course you've got all this sort of AI stuff, which is threatening our humanity in many ways. What makes us human.
[18:18] I see it even myself, I mean, I use chatGPT all the time, I think I don't have to think anymore. It's having a real impact on society, and we have to see the warning signs and the warning signs are really there. So I think loneliness is a bigger killer than smoking. We have the social disconnection that we're seeing with communities, with young people who are not going out anymore. They're sort of using dating apps, all that sort of stuff. So I think it's a really interesting time. And I think what really needs to be driving the whole longevity debate is this whole missing piece. The exposome, the social factors, which is probably the biggest factor in the exposome actually. So, yeah. So this is a new zeitgeist. This is the new moment for longevity to enter this new space. And I think people are starting to listen now.
[19:08] Briar Prestidge: And certainly if they're not listening, they might be listening once they see you behind the DJ set. Tell us about these raids you've been doing.
[19:18] Tina Woods: So that's a really interesting part of the story. And you know what, everyone has a story and actually how they engage with us. Everyone has a story about what life means for them and actually what their health means for them. And so I kind of got to this point where. And again, I'm a very questioning person. I'm a very curious person. And I had this epiphany moment when I was 56, and this is just coming out of, it's one of the big COVID lockdowns where I went.
[19:38] Briar Prestidge: How old are you now, if you don't mind me asking?
[19:39] Tina Woods: So I'm 61 and a half. And so I kind of had this epiphany moment. I guess maybe I was 57, and I went dancing with some girlfriends. And there was joy in the street because people were going out again. And people were going to restaurants again, going back to the clubs. I went to a party and then we're ready to go home. And of course a lot of my friends had moved out of London because that's what happened. They were living back home or whatever. And we basically decided to go dancing after this party we went to. And we were on my way back, actually, to my house. And we just went dancing all night and we had the best time.
[20:13] And I just kind of realized I had this epiphany moment, and I would've been like 56 then. And as a woman and of course there's [20:20 inaudible] with men too. You go through this phase in life and my sons were growing up and you kind of forget about you. Because you're so focused and I was a workaholic. I mean, I had my work and then of course I was very focused on my family, of course. They always came first. And I kind of reached this point because my sons were going to be okay, even though they went through this old kind of digital sort of craziness and this world of digital, which impacts mental health basically for most people nowadays. And I thought, you know what? My sons are going to be okay. They're off to university. I've kind of made my way now with my whole new gig, it's starting to really take off.
[20:55] And I thought, you know what? I just had this realization, I'm Tina Woods, I've got this whole new stage in my life and this music and this dancing, and I had this light bulb moment. This was like a lightning mode that just went through me. And I just realized that this music and dancing was going to be a really important part of my life because I just felt my mind, body and soul kind of coming together. And so in the years since then, I have just went and done a lot of dancing. And of course have come really close to the music that I love. And my story about becoming a DJ was a little bit by accident. My feet, I realized I had to get fixed because it was starting to impact on my mobility when I was dancing. So I was going raving all night, and I love mountains. I go do a lot of mountain climbing, and I'm very active sports wise. And I had these feet, which I knew needed surgery. And people have heard of bunions, but this is much worse than bunions.
[21:54] So I had real pain in my feet. So I knew I had to get my feet fixed. And so I finally found a surgeon. He did all the Olympic athletes, pro tennis players, Wimbledon and celebrity football stars.
[22:04] Briar Prestidge: Like, give me new feet.
[22:05] Tina Woods: And I thought, if he can do them, I can trust him to do my feet. So I found my surgeon and then he warned me that the recuperation would be like six months.
[22:15] Briar Prestidge: Oh wow, long time.
[22:15] Tina Woods: I thought oh my God, how am I going to deal with that?
[22:17] Briar Prestidge: Especially for you being so outdoors-y and everything.
[22:20] Tina Woods: I'm so physically active and it's part of my whole mental health and my emotional health and spiritual health. And I thought, okay, how am I going to deal with this? So then I thought, I'm going to learn how to mix music. And by then I had loads of friends as partners who I used to go dance with. So one of my friends who actually is one of my co-teachers for Longevity Rave and who actually, we together founded Longevity Rave. We learned how to mix music during this period when I was recuperating. And then we decided to hold a longevity rave.
[22:45] And we were absolutely staggered by the success of this. And then of course, because I'd learned how to DJ and then we held our longevity rave. When the press found out that A, I'd learned how to DJ at the age of 60, then all hell broke loose since then. So ever since then, Longevity Rave has kind of caught the imagination, this zeitgeist moment. So initially the story was like, oh, what is this crazy woman at the age of 60 learning how to DJ? Of course that was a fascination. But then I had this whole story about my biological age reduction, and I put it down.
[23:13] Briar Prestidge: What is your biological age reduction?
[23:14] Tina Woods: I mean, it's a really good question because it's one of those things, there's a lot of debate and controversy because there's a lot of people who say, oh, I took this test. Oh yeah, I'm like 20 years younger than my chronological age. That is a mistake because actually it is still more of an art than a science, all this stuff. And there's been a lot of people who are very, very well regarded, scientists and entrepreneurs, for example, Matt Capline will say, don't do any of those consumer tests because they're all rubbish. I've tested them and they all give me crazy variance in the numbers of my own biological age. So I think you have to be really, really careful. So I think be really careful about any one test that gives you a biological age or whatever number on the base that one test given at one point in time. What you have to do, and this is what I did, is you have to take a number of different data points across a number of time points as well on you as an individual, because then it becomes more meaningful. So that is what I actually try to do.
[24:12] Briar Prestidge: So which tests did you use and what data points?
[24:14] Tina Woods: So the data points and this is what became part of the story of this piece that went viral, business insider piece that went viral around the world. And they timed it when I was then in the Sunday Times being a DJ at the age of 60. So it all kind of came together and that's why it kind of hit this viral sort of stage. So it was between the age of 56 and 60 where I had a number of data points including, for example, glycan age. The Glycan age is a very popular consumer test. I did a test at the age of 56, and I know the CEO really well. And I did another test when I hit 60. And I thought it would be really interesting. And I had spoken to Nicolina Locke who's the CEO, but also some of her sort of specialist sort of consultants, who, I said why is my biological age reducing over time? And I had a conversation because we took it at a point at the age of 56. And I had just started HRT, so estrogen.
[25:08] Briar Prestidge: So what does that stand for?
[25:10] Tina Woods: So HRT. So it depends, so I started HRT and I actually started on a patch, but then I moved on to bioidentical hormone replacement therapy, estrogen, progestin. And I actually added in a bit of testosterone, which is interesting as well. So I was kind of experimenting with the HRT and what I realized is like all things, you have to kind of get the right formulation, you have to get the dose right and all the rest of it. So I was on this journey of HRT, but I was also on this journey of like really working out my life and what really gave me meaning, purpose and joy in my life. So over those few years I was going on this trajectory and of course, dancing. And of course my relationship with my friends and my husband, we became really involved in the whole dancing scene. My husband started raving with me. We do a lot of mountain climbing. He actually stopped all this crazy, well he still does a lot of this Iron Man stuff, but he actually gets a lot of joy out of the dancing.
[26:02] So he is doing a lot of dancing because this Iron Man stuff can get a little bit heavy. It's all about like performance, muscles and like training, like all very kind of alpha man stuff and very kind of quantified self stuff. Sometimes there's not enough joy in it to be quite honest. So the raving thing is actually a lot of fun. And you get a lot of exercise, believe you me, when you go raving. So I was on this journey and I had a lot of conversations with people because of course the technology was getting better. So I mean, I know a lot of people in this space, as you would expect. I mean, I'm immersed in longevity. I know all the entrepreneurs and scientists like humanity, I know very well. So they have an app, which is great. And actually that app shows your biological sort of age trajectory. And I could see if I exercise more in my trajectory, my biological age reversal would go.
[26:49] Briar Prestidge: So this GlycanAge test.
[26:51] Tina Woods: So glycan age, but also humanities. So there's a whole bunch of different stuff I was testing. So I had a number of data points between the age of 56 and 60. And then I had a whole workup at one of the leading edge clinics in the world, which is Longevity Center Europe and Warsaw. And of course I'm very involved in the International Institute of Longevity as their executive director. And we're looking at this whole sort of new frontier of longevity. Looking at all the stuff that we've just been talking about. So that became the substance of the article because I actually had a number of data points to measure. So on various trajectories, and this is where longevity center, Europe, my cardiac age, my heart age, my metabolic age, my cognitive age. And actually my cognitive age was actually the lowest even below my Glycan age.
[27:39] Briar Prestidge: So how did you measure your cognitive age?
[27:41] Tina Woods: So you have to take quite a scary test, which takes about an hour. And it's quite daunting. And so it basically measures your speed of reaction, your complex thinking. It measures your cognitive ability on a number of different parameters. And that was actually the test that I was most sort of scared of because your cognitive age and the whole kind of risk of dementia, that's a biggie. But I was hopeful that and of course, I mean my own grandfather died of dementia. And there's some heritable risk in dementia. Actually most of it is to do with your lifestyle. And I thought, you know what, I kind of live a good life and my lifestyle is pretty good. So I had all of this sort of done. And that became the focus of the story. And actually my journey. And I would say, I'm not doing any of this fancy stuff. I'm not getting like endless [28:39 inaudible] plus drips and peptide, infusions and all that kind stuff.
[28:42] Briar Prestidge: You're doing the hormone replacement, is there anything else?
[28:45] Tina Woods: I do some intermittent, so fasting. I do fast so four days a week, but it's not crazy. And I'm not a purist.
[28:51] Briar Prestidge: Your time sort of split.
[28:52] Tina Woods: It's basically, I eat one meal a day, but really healthy food. And I do that for four days a week. And then I kind of let myself do what I want on the other three days of the week. So I'm not a purist about this, but I was looking at the evidence and then of course I do exercise that I love, mountain climbing, dancing. I love some gym stuff. I love Zumba, because it's also dance. And actually the choreography of Zumba, that's actually a really good cognitive fitness sort of exercise. So I do all that sort of stuff. And I spend a lot of time with my friends and have great relationships with my husband, my family, three sons. And it's not complicated. It's actually a lot of the substance of what you hear with the blue zones, which of course has been criticized from not being kind of evidence-based enough. But actually it is kind of just going back to eating really great food. Not ultra processed, like least processed as possible.
[29:41] I cook all my own food. Like I really rarely eat stuff out of ready meals and all that. I don't really touch that sort of stuff. So it's very basic stuff. And so that was based the substance of my article. So I kind of was like, it was kind of like a different point of view than what you kept on reading in the newspapers and the media. And listen, like Brian Johnson and his blueprint, listen he's got his passion project. That's his joy. And I would say you have to be a bit careful because a lot of this blueprint will not translate to other people. That's his blueprint. And again, the message is you have to follow the science. And this is where the good longevity clinics, they will see you as an individual and you are very complicated as an individual. You've got a whole baggage, a whole history. There are no quick fixes to this at all. And unfortunately a lot of people go to longevity thinking, Hey doc, fix me. I've got a little bit of a health concern because a lot of people will have some sort of health worry or whatever, they want to lose some weight or whatever.
[30:41] But it's not easy, there are no quick fixes in this space. And you can do some things that will dramatically improve risk profiles and what have you, so that's great and that's motivating, right? But actually it's a lot of the fundamental basic stuff, eat well, exercise, try and cure some of the stresses in your life, sleep better. So it's a lot of very unfancy stuff that will actually be the ticket to really generating your improvements in health that you want to see. So I think that is the message and that was the message of a lot of this stuff. But of course the fun bit was obviously the DJ and the longevity rave. So that was why I started getting a lot of requests. And of course I speak a lot at international conferences and I speak a lot at longevity conferences. But then interestingly, I started getting a lot of interest in mainstream clubs. And I did some work at one of the big clubs in London, Cocoa, and they have the House of Cocoa.
[31:36] And they're really interested in this whole notion of making clubs healthy, rather than being the dens of inequity and getting wasted and doing all the stuff that damages your health. I actually see it as places for health because of course they have the problem. And a lot of people will know that nightclubs certainly, especially post COVID and certainly in Europe, they're closing down.
[31:55] Briar Prestidge: Yeah, I hear that. Dying and Gen Z don't want to go.
[31:59] Tina Woods: They don't go because they sit at home not drinking and sitting behind their computer screens, relying on dating apps. So it's like, there needs to be a way to bring people back out. And so I would say the serendipity, the chaos, the randomness, the beauty of being in the energy of people in real life, that is magic. And that's what we need to bring back. And you don't need to drink and get wasted. I mean, you can drink a little bit and not get wasted or you can abstain. And of course you have non-alcoholic drinks. And I'm friends with all the people who make all these non-alcoholic drinks and they're really great.
[32:37] And there's David Nutt at Imperial, his whole team at Imperial. I mean, they do a lot of very interesting research in psychedelic medicine, but they also have just pioneered non-alcoholic drinks that work on the GABA receptor that make you feel less inhibited, but are non-alcoholic, sort of ways and where you can change what you drink, make you feel good. So this is all a new sort of territory that is out there. And of course, just dancing and the power of music. Oh my goodness. So I'm fascinated by this whole concept of joy. And actually going back to the conversation that I had with the team at Glycan age. I asked them, can you measure joy? Because they could see the huge impact on your glycan age if you were going through a divorce, or if you're going through stress, they can see it in the Glycan age score.
[33:29] So your inflammation, your profile, your glycan age. Inflammation is really, really driven by stress. So you've got stress in your life, wherever it comes from. It has a huge impact. So we got in this conversation. Well the converse of that, can you measure joy and happiness and meaning. So that kind of got me thinking, and I've been thinking about that. And of course that is the new zeitgeist. It's like, how do we get joy back in our lives? Because especially post COVID, and especially because people are realizing that health and wellbeing, it's like a really precious gift, joy and meaning and feeling great and having that energy and that vitality that gives you everything to keep going.
[34:09] Briar Prestidge: Exactly. Like if you live in a world that has no joy and you're not hopeful, then that even makes changes, like the micro decisions that you make on a daily basis. You're like, what's the point of this?
[34:21] Tina Woods: Exactly. So I say and I listen and I'm friends with all the people who want to live forever. The immortalitists and the transhumanists and all the rest of it. We all have our own take on life, and you have to respect that. But instead of asking for people, wouldn't you want to live forever? You have to ask the question first. Well, what is the life worth living? And actually joy is a really important part of it, meaning and purpose. So this whole notion of like, and of course now we have the technologies now where you can start looking at that question. So that's been really fascinating to me. And that has been, so yeah. So we'd start and how can you measure joy? And so now you can, you can see it in your blood work and you can see it now.
[34:57] And this is the exciting bit. We've now got technologies like mobile, EEG, sort of trackers that can measure human emotion, measure what's going on in your brain and things like that. And you can obviously measure in your sort of biomarkers and all the rest of it, oxytocin, serotonin, all these sorts of things. So it's now becoming more and more possible to actually look at this. HRV, neuro synchrony, cardiac synchrony. Synchrony is a really interesting concept in human connection. So joy, human connection, synchrony, these are all ideas.
[35:28] Briar Prestidge: What is Synchrony?
[35:30] Tina Woods: Well, synchrony is when you're sort of physiologically, but also neurologically in tune. And so I'm really fascinated by what that means when you're with other people. So that's a whole new space that we're exploring at the moment using the new technology. So it's an open space. There are some really new research which we're going to be factoring into the study of what happens when people dance, move, and are in kind of a rave environment. So we're kind of looking at this as kind of like a use case which will lead on to a whole bunch of other use cases. So we're initially looking at, in terms of what is that power that you get and that energy and that kind of feeling of euphoria and how can you measure it when you are in this rave context? Because I can see it when I'm dancing myself, but also when I'm DJing, that the power that you get, and you can see and I have seen it myself as a dancer, but also when I'm DJing.
[36:23] When you curate a set and you're seeing people coming together, moving together, and actually you start even people forming circles, kind of like what you see, like in rituals. It kind of happens. It's really fascinating. So we're going to study that. So we've got a study we're sort of working on at the moment. It's going to be an MVP sort of pilot because what we'll want to do is learn from that and then scale up. So we've got a whole bunch of pilot sites already earmarked over the next sort of six to eight months, where we're going to develop that study, show what is happening using all the technologies, what is actually happening. And what we want to do is actually start to address this question, how can you measure joy? And what is a metric for joy going to look like? And how can we use that metric, that score maybe that will then start to be able to be factored into new products and services that give us joy and that is part of the conversation, overlayed with all the other stuff, what's happening genetically, biologically at a system level, organ wise, spiritually, mentally, psychologically, emotionally.
[37:31] It has to be part of that puzzle in this new frontier of longevity. Because you're not going to get it if you only look at animals and worms and like looking at it from the point of pills and like what pharma companies and biotech can generate. There's a whole new ball game. And I would say there's a lot of other industries that are starting to look at this. So this is actually really interesting because I'm starting to speak to beauty brands, hotels, spas. We have, even this week global Wellness Institute are running a whole program around longevity and real estate property. I went to their New York event in June. So the big money is going to be coming not just from farm and biotech. It's going to be coming from industry verticals like hotels, people that are building new places for homes, communities, neighborhoods like here in Dubai, building places for flourishing environments, for flourishing homes, for flourishing.
[38:25] There's going to be extra real estate value. If you can measure health and what happens when you're living in a great place, boy, that's going to make people wake up. So there's going to be a lot of money in longevity if you think about longevity differently. And this is where the human exposome project, giving us a scientific evidence base for what will really promote those environments for human health, resilience and flourishing. It's not just about health span, it's about flourishing. Because we need joy, meaning, hope, existential hope. That is a huge agenda topic.
[38:56] Briar Prestidge: It's missing a bit in life at the moment.
[38:58] Tina Woods: It's like, if you think differently, if you are optimistic, if you have hope in your life, you will think differently and you'll ask different questions. And that will start to really infuse not just you as an individual, but you and your families and that will become viral. And that's how we need to be thinking.
[39:16] Briar Prestidge: How can we change this whole system? Because the way that you describe it now, it's like, okay, change your environment. Change your life, but not just your own environment. Like everybody has their part to play in the changing of this world.
[39:30] Tina Woods: So I think this is the point. It is not just about individual agency. This is where Silicon Valley gets it wrong because they're always interested about the individual and all the fancy tech. And this has been part, the stuff that you can wear, that you can take, that you can buy for yourself and put it on Instagram.
[39:46] Briar Prestidge: BCI's. Yeah.
[39:46] Tina Woods: It is actually becoming, it is a collective thing because you will have an impact on your surroundings, obviously your friends and your immediate family, people who you love. But it will go viral and it will go, it'll become communities. It'll become ever bigger. And that is what we need. That is the thinking. This is a thinking that we must bring into this whole domain of AI and all this new world that we're entering. It has to be bigger than just ourselves. And that is the piece that we're missing. If you look at our young people, they don't have religion the way that, you know, I'm not a religious person, but I do believe in something bigger than myself that is guiding me. It's not just about what matters to me. I mean, now that I'm a mother, it's about my children, it's about, as you grow older, you do have, you realize, and this is the legacy that people want to leave behind.
[40:40] It's not just about you. It's a selfish thing only to think about you. It's a much bigger thing. And so that's the beauty about also getting older. It's not just about yourself. You spend your younger years just trying to figure out yourself, and then you spend your older years trying to, well, with what I know, how can I give some back? That is the beauty about life. And so I think that is what we need to start really thinking about. And I think, you look to other parts of the world where there is a more collective kind of society, they kind of get it. And so I think ancient wisdom, sort of Indian medicine, Chinese philosophy, these are really starting to kind of become the new also way of thinking about longevity because they kind of think about it in those terms in a lot of ways.
[41:24] And so I think that's a whole new way that we have to move in the whole longevity circles. And I think the west are kind of a bit behind the curve actually. So I think the whole longevity debate is going to be really driven by this growing kind of magnetism and the energy and also the optimism and this different way of thinking about, it's not just about individuals anymore. It's a collective thing. And I think that is really powerful. And so this is the news [41:51 inaudible] and joy can be infectious and it can affect other people and all the rest of it.
[41:55] Briar Prestidge: And I heard you say on the panel that I watched at the Future Forum the other day about how, I think it was a Chinese philosophy that you spoke about. How they go to the doctors when they are well, and the doctors get paid for keeping them well.
[42:11] Tina Woods: So this is ancient Chinese medicine. You pay your doctor when you stay well.
[42:15] Briar Prestidge: Interesting.
[42:15] Tina Woods: We need to go back to that model because at the moment, all the incentives are driving, going to hospitals more, going to doctors more, wanting to get fixed more, getting the latest quick fix.
[42:27] Briar Prestidge: It's a true, we go to the doctors now and the doctors get like compensated, keeping us sick.
[42:32] Tina Woods: That's the whole insurance, the whole way that insurance and the whole way that hospital activity rates and doctors are paid, are like by chronic diseases. So you have to change the incentives, the metrics of how the whole system operates. So it is a big system change.
[42:48] Briar Prestidge: Who would we ask about getting that system changed? How would we start that?
[42:53] Tina Woods: So this goes back to.
[42:55] Briar Prestidge: I think that needs to happen. You are so right, like why aren't people being paid for keeping people well?
[43:02] Tina Woods: Because we've got all the perverse incentives that are working against us and against that. So I think we have to start asking the bigger questions of what kind of society and world do we want to live in? I think capitalism is in many ways a good thing. It kind of strikes one aspect of human behavior and motivation, but I think we have to really address sort of the really intrinsic motivations of people. It is not just about money. We can see that joy and our health and meaning in our lives, these are really important to people. So we have to have a way of measuring and incentivizing our systems that recognizes that. It can't just be about money. And unfortunately, a lot of the stuff that drives individual behavior, city behavior, corporate behavior, government behavior is about the money, GDP growth.
[43:56] So we have to think differently about that. And in fairness, there's a lot of places, Bhutan and like even New Zealand and Tara, I said, even the UK are looking at bringing wellbeing into GDP as part of the way that we measure national success. So things are starting to kind of, the penny is starting to drop because the burning platform has arrived so powerfully that we cannot ignore our health anymore, which is obviously linked to spiritual, emotional and psychological health because it is linked to our individual wealth and obviously to our economic and prosperity as nation. So we have to really rethink the whole way that the metrics and the incentives are designed as a system. So I'm doing some really interesting work in the UK about this because the system levers, A, we got to get the public behind it, obviously, but we have to get big business. We have to get investment decision making. We have to get policy and government behind it, because in the end, the government makes the rules.
[44:51] But the rules and legislation also influence how we as citizens behave and how we as corporations behave, and how we as investors behave. So they do have a really important role so that's where it lies. So looking at the key system levers, it is exactly that. It's about government policy making big money business, obviously investors, obviously the general public, but also the third sector charities and obviously our public sector as well. So this is the thing we have to ask the right question. It's just like chatGPT, you'll get crap answers if you ask the crap questions, right? So we fundamentally need to ask the right questions of us as a society and as nation, what we really want. Start there because we do not ask the right questions at the moment. I mean, I get so bored and frustrated.
[45:41] Briar Prestidge: What kind of questions do you think we should be asking?
[45:42] Tina Woods: Well, what will give, how do we need to measure the success of our society? If it's not just GDP, well, what is it going to be? What really matters to people? It would be really interesting to see what chatGPT spits out on that one. And then how do we actually regear the system if we know that prevention, we may not see a return on prevention for like, well, if you really want to see a return on prevention, you have to even start before birth. So this is the human exposome. Because our parents', lifestyle, stress, eating junk food, that will actually have an epigenetic bearing on their offspring. So there's a whole generational thing that we have to think about. So before birth. And then of course, good habits have to start early in childhood, eating really great unprocessed food, not junk food. Having good exercise in your life. These are habits, behavioral habits that have to start early in childhood.
[46:39] And then across your life, instilling all those good behaviors and habits, but then having an environment where you are encouraged and nudged towards healthier behaviors. So you don't see a Kentucky fried chicken shop on every street corner. And where it's cheaper than getting healthier food, where you're not constantly being asked to go into a car and having your whole system laid out with highways. You have to have different policies, transportation policies. And if you're thinking about building a new city, well don't build it full of freeways and highways where you're not allowed to walk. So it's a whole new way of thinking about how we design our environments. And so, in new environments, like I was fascinated when I started talking to like the Neo, line city in Saudi Arabia, this is two or three years ago. So they had the opportunity and still do actually, to create a whole place where they really understand and really would understand how they should create an environment for human health and flourishing where you get all the data points, you really understand what works and how you incentivize healthy behaviors.
[47:37] So let's hope they get that right still. They've had a bit of false starts, and I think they spent a lot of money on management consulting who had their own, they just want to make a lot of money. And of course they're working with organizations who have a lot of vested interests in the chronic disease model from the west. So there are whole kinds of fraught with complications. We cannot just import the westernized model into the new model. And I think people are starting to realize that because the western disease has actually created a lot of problems for us, actually, the western way of cars, junk food, leaving it too late until we are fixed. There's a lot of problems with the westernized model, which I think people are starting to realize. Let's really look to the East Asians and really use this technology in a way that will really deliver on individual, but also for everybody, not just for those who can afford it.
[48:26] Briar Prestidge: So data has been a big thing. About how we can essentially create this environment, encourage and incentivize people to stay well. How can we trust people with our data? And you do speak about things like digital wallets or passports or whatever. Tell me a bit more about how you envision this.
[48:47] Tina Woods: So this is a really, really interesting question and a very important question, especially now because we know that the big tech guys. I mean just look at the wealth of the seven big tech companies, especially like Nvidia. I heard the shared results this morning. I mean, it is just staggering how much wealth is held by those companies. So we have to really look at how we can make sure that all that power and wealth can be harnessed in a good way. Now, I'm not saying it's impossible, but again, it goes back to the incentives and the metrics of the system. So I think there's some really interesting developers in other parts of the world, and Europe has been trying to lead the way in terms of the whole kind of digital economy.
[49:26] And the UK has been really interesting in the sense that coming out of Brexit and we're trying to find a way as a little country now in this big wide world, there as been some really interesting data legislation that's just been passed through called the use and reuse bill, where the idea is that citizens through concepts like personal data wallets. And now of course concepts like digital verification identification, where you can link data sets across people's lives. NHS data, obviously in the medical care record, which is probably the least important data because that's already when you're too sick. What you want is to get all that data that sheds light on a person's behavior and lifestyle across their lives, which you can get from supermarket data, like what food are they eating, obviously their fitness patterns, which of course you can get obviously already through app, what's on your phones and stuff like that.
[50:18] So all that data and the music that you're listening to, the joy that you're gathering from music, all that data with all these companies and through very, very simple sort of consent mechanisms through a personal data wallet, which gives the consumer control over the data, they can share their data with whoever they choose. And if you can incentivize them to share their data, obviously for their own benefit, new products and services to keep them healthier and well, incentivize positive behavior, maybe the government, maybe the NHS can reward you, give you points. Get reward points or make food cheaper through discount vouchers, whatever. Eat healthier food. Don't go to the junk food because the NHS will benefit if you don't get really overweight on junk food and obviously all the other complications.
[50:58] They don't have to rely on the weight loss jabs because you are so keeping healthy. And these are all the built-in incentives that you can then structure in having the data available, incentivizing the individual, incentivizing the system to keep you healthy and well. So that's a big idea that UK government are looking at in terms of fueling the smart data economy, linking all those data sets across people's individual lives. And then of course, you can link that in with health insurance, life insurance. There's a whole new world for the taking, if we get it right. But giving, it's about this individual. It's not about big tech deciding how they're going to incentivize you for gain, for profit gain and all their world. It's a different model. And there are different parts.
[51:40] So I'm also working and speaking to the island of Jersey, a really interesting little island, a channel island off the coast of the UK, they may be first in all this. A bit of FOMO also really helps because the UK government, they've got some good ideas, but they're still very, very slow. Jersey, they want to become the island of longevity. They're really interested in becoming a human exposome test bed. They can make their own laws because they aren't tied in with the UK government with doing things. They want to do something really good for their population, which is a very mixed socioeconomic population, by the way. They have everything from the billionaires through to the socioeconomic deprived immigrant populations, etcetera.
[52:20] Very mixed environment. And they also know about food systems and air pollution and all that kind of stuff. So they're looking at this as a real opportunity also to attract talent to the island, research, innovators, scientists, because they want people to keep on the island who'll be incentivized to stay on the island, train on the island, work and live on the island. They also want to do a longevity rave next year. They get the idea. So these are things that are starting to happen. And they also have a data trust where the data belongs to the citizen, and they have a whole legal framework where the citizen consent to the use of their data to share maybe for ethical aging research or health research. And of course you've got little islands like that. Those are new models of actually the future, which can then fuel a whole different way of giving us data for the algorithms, which are actually in the end decided by the citizen, not big tech. So these are really interesting ideas which are going to maybe start to become really interesting ideas to pilot in other parts of the world.
[53:22] Briar Prestidge: I think once people start to get used to the idea and trust, I personally think this is a great idea to have this kind of systems, this gamified sort of experience when it comes to, to health and wellness. But I just know that so many people out there, they hate the thought of a digital ID or their house being connected.
[53:47] Tina Woods: They're about their data being abused. They're worried about that. But you know what? I've done so much work and I've sat on so of many citizen journeys, and I've done a lot of work on the ethics of AI. I mean, I sit in all sorts of committees and stuff, which I won't bore you with, but citizens and consumers and same people, they're very happy to share their data if there's an immediate benefit for them. That's how the big tech model actually works. And that's great. They're also really happy to share their data for wider societal good. People intrinsically are good. And this comes down to our sort of, our altruistic nature, actually. We want to do good by our neighbor for our children, people who matter to us and actually, if there's a way that you can share your data for good, for public good.
[54:29] So I think there's a whole discussion that needs to be had on data as a public good. And factoring that into the socioeconomic way of government decision making. I think these are really interesting concepts where commercial and social returns go hand in hand so they're not enemies. You can make a lot of money by doing good for humanity. That's where we need to be. That's where the world needs to be.
[54:52] Briar Prestidge: I agree.
[54:54] Tina Woods: And this is where AI and the whole new world of what we're seeing, artificial intelligence because there are a lot of worries about it. We've got to protect, in the end what really matters to us. What matters to us as human beings, recognizing both the good and the bad drivers of human behavior. Greed, I would say is a bad thing. Let's make it more around sharing and the altruism. You can still make a lot of money being altruistic. So that's where we need to be. So really work with human behavior, but in a very powerful and a very good, good way because I think that will only lead to much bigger and better things for everybody, including the billionaires and the trillionaires. So it's not a zero sum game. So I think that's the opportunity.
[55:38] Briar Prestidge: Well, thank you so much for coming on the show, Tina. This was fascinating and I hope people got some really great takeaways about how to hack their own biology. I'm definitely going to be looking more into this whole joyfulness.
[55:51] Tina Woods: Bio harmony might be a new word.
[55:52] Briar Prestidge: Bio harmony. I love that.
[55:54] Tina Woods: Don't work against your biology. Work with it. And release it. And make it flourish.
[55:58] Briar Prestidge: Interesting. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. It's always a pleasure.
[56:02] Tina Woods: Great to be here and always great to have these conversations with you Briar so thank you.
[56:06] Briar Prestidge: It's really nice, thank you.
About Tina Woods
Tina Woods is Founder and CEO of Collider Health and Executive Director of the International Institute of Longevity, where her work focuses on translating advances in longevity and exposome science into practical, real-world applications. Her current interests centre on the human exposome, particularly the social and emotional factors that shape resilience, recovery, and healthspan across the life course.
Tina serves on the Steering Committee and is Global Ambassador for Partnerships for the Human Exposome Project, linking human and planetary health, and is Healthy Longevity Champion for the UK’s National Innovation Centre for Ageing. She has advised governments, research councils, and international initiatives on prevention, ageing, and system change.
She is also co-founder of Longevity Rave, where she DJs as Tina Technotic, a collective of scientists, entrepreneurs, DJs, and artists exploring how music, movement, and social connection can support wellbeing and longevity. She is leading the JoyScore Experiment , an open science study exploring how human connection and joy affect the brain, the heart, the immune system, and our long-term healthspan and resilience.
Tina studied genetics at Cornell University, holds an MBA from Bayes Business School, and is the author of Live Longer with AI.
