#E64 The Code to Living Longer Already Exists in Our Biology, With Dr. Federico Von Son
Read the HYPERSCALE transcript
[00:00] Briar: Hi everyone, and welcome to Hyperscale. It's your host, Briar Prestidge. And today I've got Dr. Federico Von Son with me, and we are going to be talking about one of my favorite topics, all things longevity. Welcome to the show.
[00:14] Federico: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
[00:16] Briar: So tell me a bit about your background. Like how did you even get into longevity and yeah, trying to optimize your health?
[00:24] Federico: How deep should I go in terms of my background?
[00:27] Briar: Oh you can go deep.
[00:28] Federico: No. So I've always been involved in this field because my dad, he was also a physician and he was one of the pioneers in the, it was mostly known as the anti-aging era, like 25 years ago. So I was always linked to the field. I always said that I didn't want to become a doctor. I was never going to study for so long. And like doctors, we have to be all the time reading research and like up to date. So I became an athlete and that was probably something that made me see the things the way that I see it right now. And so yeah, when I went to med school and I decided to start studying I got very, very hooked and very excited about regenerative medicine and the effect of stem cells in our body. I wanted to do my residency program in Switzerland in trying to grow amputated limps. That was like my whole idea, and I was like really bullish into doing that.
[01:43] Briar: Fascinating.
[01:45] Federico: Then I decided to just like move a little bit more into the entrepreneurial side. I was trained in genomics and translational medicine, and I started my first company when I was still in med school. So fortunately for me, I met some investors and they wanted to develop like a new concept for genomics, direct to consumer genomics in Mexico. So I started with that. I made a ton of mistakes, a lot. I was young of course and that was like my first company. We really set the pace for consumer genetics in Latin America at that point. That was 10 years ago. And I think that really helped me to like, restructure my concept of how we should approach medicine. So I learned a lot. I worked with government grants and I went from studying professional athletes to going to indigenous communities and collecting data from indigenous communities and building relationships with them.
[02:57] Federico: Because you might know that Latinos is one of the most underrepresented groups in research and in databases. So one of my missions was like, how can we change that because we don't have access to precision health and we are providing our Latino communities with the same treatments that were developed for other populations. And this replicates in other latitudes as well. It's the same. So that got me like, very into trying to understand how you could integrate health tech and data and the clinical side and research and like a real combination. And that's how everything really started.
[03:38] Briar: Wow. What a story, what a journey. So tell us more about genomics, like what is that for those who are listening?
[03:46] Federico: Yeah. So we all have us, human beings because well actually every living cell has a genetic code, right? This is mainly like a recipe that we have in our cells to behave as they should, so because every single cell behaves differently in different tissues to express different proteins. So back in the nineties, there was this project called the Human Genome Project that finished around 2003. It cost around almost $3 billion to sequence the first genome. So that was like, to understand like the whole code and the whole recipe book that we have in human cells. And by that point, a lot of questions arose, because we didn't know if that was going to really give us any understanding about health or not. It was like a very exciting time, but at the same time, it was like a flat code, like some information that we don't know what to do with it. And up until now, we don't really understand 100% of the genome, but we know that it's there, it's a code, and we know that a lot of diseases are linked to these codes and to the genes. But we keep discovering what it's doing and each one of the regions what it's there for. And how can we leverage on that also to improve some diseases and to make ourselves behave differently. So, yeah.
[05:24] Briar: What kind of things do you think in the future, once we like really understand this, like what kind of things do you think we could cure or discover about humans?
[05:35] Federico: So since we're talking about a code, once you crack the code and you understand, I mean, there's no like perfect code, right? There's always an interaction between your genome and the environment. And everyday there was a paper I think published a couple days ago in Nature that shows now that the environment has a huge impact on how we age and how we actually behave. So we are understanding now that this code is there, amazing, but now how can I make this code behave in different ways? So I think that the most exciting right now is how can we understand the different layers that is called now multiomics. So like different layers of information within the, let's say, from this code up to how we express the code and how we look like, which is called the phenom. And all of these layers in between that makes us human and makes us behave as we behave, develop diseases, have different eye colors, skin color, like the differences between races. So I think that right now we are still trying to understand how everything is interconnecting. And maybe I think that AI is going to help us with that. That's the way that we can understand all of these overlaps.
[06:54] Briar: Yes. So when you're talking about the environment having an impact, are we talking like plastics or lack of sleep? Like, do these things impact our genome?
[07:05] Federico: Well, it's everything. It's everything. From exercise, sleep, we were talking about the exposure to the sun and humidity, like every single factor that interacts with us has an impact. The thing is that we probably don't know yet what's that impact, right? So we are like focusing on specific things because after industrialization of course there are like some signs that we can see, like red flags and we can already know that quality of food and processed foods and microplastics and toxins and endocrine disruptors. So we already know that there are a lot of things that have a huge impact, and that's why we are focusing on that. But really the interaction with our genome, it comes from everything that gets in touch with us. We were talking about the light, like everything really generates a reaction in our body, but we don't understand it yet.
[08:05] Briar: Very interesting. So artificial intelligence, what kind of things do you envision artificial intelligence being able to help us with? Or maybe it's already helping us now. Like, tell me a bit about the use applications.
[08:22] Federico: Okay. So to make it like simple and just try to.
[08:28] Briar: Lets keep it basic for everybody.
[08:30] Federico: Yeah, to keep it basic, but also to what's tangible right now. It's really to identify the interaction between all of these areas that I've just mentioned. So how can we understand health data from a different perspective? If I can have access to your electronic health record, and then we can have access to your smartphone, your biosensors, like real time readings of how you behave when you're in touch with that environment. We can have access to the type of the food that you eat. We can have access to your blood work and biomarkers. We can have access to more information about your environment. Then connecting all of those dots and being able to identify patterns that's very complicated. Very, very complicated.
[09:23] Federico: And I think AI can really help us to make sense out of the data. And once we identify those like potential areas of opportunity, I think there are a lot of things that can be developed by identifying those patterns. But I think that's where, I mean we cannot do that, right? So it's impossible when you are trained in med school and you are seeing like a complicated case in internal medicine, right? And you have like this Dr. House case where like everyone is trying to identify what's going on and you're only talking about one specific situation. You have the patient there and you have a lot of data that you can see. Now, imagine adding 20, 30, 50, 100, 200 layers of data, additional data that you can now add. So it becomes impossible for a physician to do it. So I think that AI is really becoming a really good tool and that we need to learn how to use it for the benefit of the physician and more importantly, for the benefit of the patient and the population.
[10:27] Briar: One of my earlier podcasting guests said that he's been using his LLM, so like ChatGPT or something similar to like feed it all of his longevity data and start to almost be coached by it. Are you seeing some of your patients going that far already when it comes to really thinking of like the day to day?
[10:47] Federico: So first of all, they use ChatGPT to search more about me in the clinic.
[10:53] Briar: Is this guy legit?
[10:54] Federico: I found you. Yeah exactly.
[10:55] Briar: Is he going to help me live till 300 years old?
[10:57] Federico: So I found you in ChatGPT. I was like tapping.
[11:00] Briar: That's good. Means you're all over.
[11:02] Federico: I'm like, okay, now we should probably work with ChatGPT and do some ad work or something and that campaigns there. That's probably coming at some point. But that's like very normal. So, like for the last maybe two, three months, it's becoming more common that people actually come and say, oh, yeah, I ask ChatGPT which is the best longevity clinic or physician or whatever and I came to you. So that's like the first interaction. But I do see a lot of patients that they use these tools to guide their decisions and their journey because it's even complicated. If it's complicated for us, it's of more complicated for the end user, right? But I would say that it's still more complicated for us because as deep as you go in terms of researching and identifying patterns and data sets and stuff, it becomes more and more and more profound and complicated. So I think this is a great tool that we just need to ask the right questions. And we have to provide it with the right data sets and information. And if we can do that, I think it's going to give us really, really nice answers.
[12:15] Briar: So say I'm a patient, and by the way I'd love to come see you in the clinic, so we'll make this happen.
[12:19] Federico: For sure.
[12:21] Briar: I'm like always thinking about how I can live to, yeah 300 years old and after all of the nuances and discoveries and anything I can be doing to make it better. So say I'm your patient and I come and see you, like, what could I expect? Like what kind of assessments do you perform on me? And then what kind of protocols do I essentially follow?
[12:43] Federico: So first of all, I have different rules for someone to become my patient. You will see those rules, and that's like the first thing.
[12:50] Briar: Okay, what are the rules?
[12:51] Federico: The first one is, I cannot know it all. I try to always be very down to earth and say, I know a lot. I study a lot, and I'm always trying to stay on the top. But it's very complicated. Like, science goes so fast that sometimes even a patient will come and tell me, did you see this new supplement, this new thing? And I'm like, I have no idea. So just like, let me take a look at it and I'll check it. So this is like rule number one, because if I don't do this, that's impossible to have an honest relationship, right? Second one is commitment. So if you're not committed to really make a change in your life, a lot of patients come and they say, oh, yeah, I want to start my longevity journey. Okay, we'll go to step minus 10, right? Which is lifestyle factors. Are you willing to stop smoking? Are you willing to stop drinking? Are you willing to exercise and to eat nutritious foods?
[13:49] And they say no to A, B, C, and like, sorry. But like based on research right now, that can add up to 25 extra years to your life. So why do we go to the gene therapies and stem cells and advanced therapeutics if you're not really doing step one or two or minus 10. So this is the second rule, and I think this is the most important. And with it comes compliance. So the third one is like compliance and reciprocity. So I always have to learn something from my patients. If I don't learn something, if they tell me that they are in real estate or there, I also like to learn from other things. So they have to teach me something. Otherwise, this is not a working relationship.
[14:39] Briar: Okay. Noted. Before I come to you, I'll put a little list of things that I could teach you.
[14:44] Federico: If you can do that, we can start. So after that we have different ways to approach it because of commitment mainly. So a lot of patients, they want to come and just go through therapeutics. We can always do it, do that, do it. But I'm very honest and tell them, we can do advanced therapeutics, and you will see some improvements.
[15:07] Briar: So when we're talking about therapeutics, what do you mean by this?
[15:10] Federico: A lot of people want to do therapeutic plasma exchange, which we are not doing yet, but we do the EBU procedure that you probably have heard of. We use advanced cell therapies and biological therapies like exosomes stem cells. So these are some of the things that we do. Gene therapies are very, very, very close to become something and I'm very excited. That's why I smile because this is something that I think it's going to start happening very soon. I mean, it's already happening, but it's not like widely used. So there are a lot of things in terms of advanced therapeutics and senolytics and many things. But we always go back to the basics. If a patient comes, we need to first of all understand the commitment and also time commitment.
[16:03] Federico: Some people travel a lot. So especially in Dubai, it's like we see a lot of people just like going back and forth. So depending on that, we create a plan for the patient. Usually how it looks like is we start with a baseline assessment where we do or gather a lot of biomarkers, blood biomarkers, urine biomarkers, genetics, epigenetics, microbiome. We really gather a lot of data imaging. And we start collecting the data. We start analyzing the information. And based on that, we create a plan, a strategic health optimization plan. So we have a multidisciplinary team and based on all of these data sets, we start making decisions. Like, we identify these issues based on your symptoms and based on your markers. And this is the way that we would approach it. So we create a plan, and now it's time for the patient to start deploying it. And this is where it becomes tricky, right? Because now we need compliance from the patients. And so this comes also with motivation and psychology assessment, like really building a team that can be your support group. But this is basically how it looks like in terms of how we approach longevity.
[17:22] Briar: So when it comes to this like protocol that we might have, like, are these I'm guessing like nutrition and sleep, like these are daily habits that essentially you would hold people accountable for in addition to some of the more advanced therapies and things?
[17:39] Federico: Yeah, it goes all the way down from yeah, clinical nutrition but we also add biosensors to the equation. So if a patient has never measured the way that their glucose reacts to specific foods, will add it because metabolic health is one of the, or maybe the most important cause of diseases worldwide. So we always want to understand how you react to certain foods. And so continuous glucose monitors, that's like something that you will for sure go through. And then if patients don't have like any type of extra biosensor data that they can provide, we provide them with sensors also to start gathering more information.
[18:24] Briar: Like, watch or ring, is this what you mean?
[18:27] Federico: Yeah. It depends on the patient, because some of them don't want to use one or the other. So we choose strategically but we definitely want to understand patterns. It's like the data so far with the biosensor is like, you cannot rely on it 100%. But I think it will get there at some point, but we can see patterns and we can see trends, and this is what really matters, so how can we see a trend in your recovery, post-exercise recovery? How can we see a trend in your sleep? How can we see a trend in the way that you're reacting to certain foods or the timing of those reactions? And so that we can start modifying based on that. So this is usually the way that we approach it, then yes, of course, it comes with a personalized nutrition plan, supplementation plan.
[19:14] If we need to use IV therapies to boost something that we think we might post at the beginning, we'll do it. And then we move all the way up to advanced therapeutics, but we can go as basic as starting with physiotherapy, right? Because it has been overseen, like the importance of mobility and the importance of building the foundations for longevity from movement, right? So we do a lot of analysis in terms of muscle strength, VO2 max, stability. And based on that, we have a professional team that will start just like from the basics, teaching people even how to move and perform an exercise. And yeah, we just start building from there.
[20:04] Briar: So in terms of trends, like, are you seeing anything in today's world that is different from maybe like, I don't know, 15 years ago when you were first starting out in your career
[20:15] Federico: In terms of training?
[20:16] Briar: For trends, like environmental impacts, or maybe people are presenting in a certain way compared to how they were before, or not so much?
[20:29] Federico: I think we are looking a lot more into recovery now and the importance of recovery strategies. I think that we need to understand that our muscles are in the end, I mean, it's a tissue and they are cells, and we need to also provide them with the right resources, but also with a proper recovery. So the connection between sleep, the timing to stimulate another muscle group or to stimulate it again, this has become very important. The fascia on the muscles, this has become very, very important for mobility and for performance. And then going back to the basic, as I mentioned with mobility, for a lot of patients, they don't understand that everything starts with the feet. And that if you don't have a good ankle mobility just to get started you are very prone at age 65 to fall and break your hip.
[21:27] And if you break your hip, probably between in the next 10 years, you are at 30% risk of dying. No, at the first year, you're at 33% risk of dying. And after 10 years, almost 70%. So it has a huge impact. And that's because it's a translation of your overall health, but it all starts with a feet, so with the ankle mobility and with the strength in your feet. So if we don't start, like going back to the basics, and like fitness has always been somehow connected to the visual side of fitness, how do you look instead of how you perform? And I think we are trying to go back into how you perform, and the look is probably not becoming most of the like, too important to the equation.
[22:21] Briar: So does this mean I have to stop wearing my heels and start walking around in bare feet? Probably. Heels are so bad, aren't they? But they look cute.
[22:33] Federico: They look cute, yeah.
[22:37] Briar: I'll think about it. I'll think about it
[22:38] Federico: Exactly. Or I mean there are strategies at least, right? So if you're going to be using high heels for a long period of time, at least you should take them off as soon as you can and stimulate your feet because your feet lose strength and they lose tone, and they lose mobility because they are fixed in a position. And they have an angle, and you don't want those angles. You want to have a zero drop in your angle. So there are a lot of things that are connected.
[23:10] Briar: And recovery. So yes, I have been hearing that recovery, it's definitely been getting some more air time. Say we've gone to the gym like three days in a row, or even two days or one day, whatever, but we are feeling exhausted. Should we go back to the gym? Or do you really think that prioritizing recovery is the best thing to do?
[23:31] Federico: Then again, I use data and metrics. I think that's, of course the way you feel is very important. But I'm going to give you a very simple example. Someone that has higher levels of testosterone, naturally higher levels of testosterone will recover faster than someone the same age with lower levels of testosterone. And then we can go like deep into receptors and other things that is very complicated. But there are a lot of things that are playing into recovery, right? So it's very important how you feel. Of course, if you don't feel like training that day, probably your body's telling you, I'm not ready to train. But if you add data to the equation and you can measure your heart rate variabilities, there are trend downwards. So I'm not recovering very well. So my central nervous system is telling me that there's something, I cannot, that I'm not recovering in a proper way. Of course hydration, sleep, there are metrics that can be measured, resting heart rate, and if your body's not yet recovered, sometimes the recommendation would be, you can stop for today, or you can have a passive recovery, and then you'll start again two days after.
[24:48] Briar: Testosterone. So this one's for you boys, I know I've got a lot of men who listen to the podcast, but are you seeing lower levels of testosterone in men coming to the clinic? Because this seems to be a common thing that I'm hearing a lot of my male friends complaining about. They feel that they're just a lot lower in tests than what historically men were in the past.
[25:14] Federico: So we have some important things here to be highlighted. First of all, is what does normal mean? Because medicine has always relied on lab ranges, but we know that lab ranges are population ranges. And as those ranges change also with disease, they are just moving downwards or upwards. So we need to be very careful on how to use that data. Yes, we see a lot of people more with symptoms of low testosterone than with actual low testosterone. So this means that probably we are seeing a trend into being, there's something disrupted in the the path. Maybe it's not the production or the synthesis of testosterone, but maybe something that it's not allowing testosterone to either convert into its active form or to have an effect on a tissue level. So there are a lot of endocrine disruptors like you mentioned microplastics and phalates and perfumes and a lot of things that are contained in different products that have a huge impact in disrupting our endocrine system.
[26:32] Federico: So this is something that we are seeing more frequently. Sometimes you see, let's say fair enough levels of total testosterone, which is not a good metric to, I mean, it's not a standalone metric that we can use to evaluate the effect of testosterone, but sometimes you see good levels and patients still have symptoms of low testosterone. So you have to dig further and go deeper and try to identify what's really going on. That's why we always approach it. I get a lot of patients, they come and they say like, I'm already on TRT, or I want to start TRT because a friend is using and either now they are afraid of starting because they see the huge problems that we are seeing when these type of treatment are not used properly.
[27:22] Briar: Like what kind of problems?
[27:24] Federico: So to give you an example testosterone converts also to estradiol. So it depends on the genetics of the patient and maybe even the epigenetics of the patient on how they convert either to the active form, which is the hydrotestosterone or to estradiol. So if someone is converting, you have high doses of exogenous testosterone, which means you are applying high doses of testosterone, which happens a lot. And this patient has a higher genetic profile that converts testosterone into estradiol. They are going to have very high levels of estradiol. Estradiol is really good, and it's very cardioprotective. So it really protects your cardiovascular system, but the levels need to be at some point, and a lot of times we see like super physiological levels of estradiol, and it's like patients feel like they are in a menopause at their forties and they shouldn't. So they have hot flashes and they have issues with sleep, and they just start having these very clear signs of high estradiol, just to give you an example, but this happens a lot.
[28:36] So I think it comes with a lot of education from the physician, but also from the patients because whenever a patient comes and tell me, I want to start TRT, I say, no, you have my rules to become a patient, you have to go through one of the programs because I'm going to be very thorough and I'm going to educate you a lot as well. And to gather a lot of information to make smarter decisions, because that's what we are doing, precision longevity, right? So I don't want to start you on something only based on on one metric. Sometimes symptoms are good enough, and we say you have like very clear symptoms for something. I'll start you and I'll make you feel better, and then I'll move from there. Sometimes that's enough, but sometimes we need more information.
[29:19] Briar: So advanced therapies like stem cells, like stem cells are really getting a bit of ear time these days. Like, is it true that if I have like a sore knee or something like this, if I put stem cells in them, then my knee is going to heal a lot faster? Like, what kind of things are you guys seeing with stem cells?
[29:37] Federico: Yeah, so there are a lot of misconceptions in terms of stem cells. The first one is that the most research area of stem cells, I would say is osteoarthritis and joints. And we've understood through all of these or most of these studies that stem cells, we thought that they would travel to the tissue and start repairing the tissue. So this is the first misconception, like stem cells are not like the magic savers, and they will go and repair the tissue, right?
[30:12] Briar: That's kind of how I pictured them in my head.
[30:14] Federico: It's just a good marketing, on how to say that these stem cells work. Really what stem cells do is that they go and identify those tissues because there's a chemical signal that is being sent by that inflamed and damaged tissue, right? So stem cells can migrate and can identify those tissues, and then they can help your local stem cells and your local tissues to repair themselves. And if there's any damage in those cells, let's say that those cells are senescent, which means that they are already aged and they cannot produce enough energy, or they cannot behave as a regenerative cell, they will help them transferring, let's put it simple information and nutrients and basically mitochondria to the other cells to help them repair themselves and behaving as a regenerative cell.
[31:09] So this is most of the effect that it's performed by stem cells. And then communication, maybe you've heard of the term exosomes. So they secrete exosomes, which is like small bubbles of information to start sending to other cells, and just like a quarterback, right? So they're telling them how to behave and how to repair. The good thing about stem cells is that as we age, we lose, first of all, the ability from our own stem cells to regenerate and to repair tissues. So when we have, let's say an injury, inflammation is very good for our body because inflammation triggers the regenerative process. So we need inflammation. That's normal. That's okay. The problem is that when we don't have enough regenerative components, inflammation can become chronic inflammation because we don't have this shift from inflammation into regeneration.
[32:03] So with stem cells, we are adding now enough sources for the body to start repairing, so this is where it becomes very important. And that's what has like all of the scientists and physicians, very excited. But as usual, we always exaggerate in terms of what things can do, right? So they work very well. They have a huge effect, but we also need to be conscious about, like the limit on what we can achieve with stem cells. So it doesn't mean that it doesn't work, they work very well, but we need to be very transparent and honest that there's like a limit on what they can actually do.
[32:47] Briar: And peptides. What's your thoughts about peptides?
[32:50] Federico: This is an interesting topic. I love the concept of peptides. And I really think they have a huge impact.
[33:01] Briar: Like injecting them, right? Injecting peptides, just to clarify for those listening.
[33:05] Federico: Yeah. So basically what a peptide is, it's like a small sequence of amino acids. Just imagine like a short version of a protein just to simplify. And they basically go and bind to specific areas of our body, depending on the size of the peptide, and they trigger a response, right? So we have peptides that act in our central nervous system. We have peptides that act locally to repetitious. We have peptides that act in our thymus to act as this quarterback to modulate inflammation and our immune system. So there are different type of peptides. There are, I would say, hundreds or thousands of peptides that have been researched. The problem with peptides is that as far as I know, they cannot be patented. It's the same as with genes and the same as with stem cells and with many other treatments. So this is why probably for the pharma industry, this is not very appealing, right? A clear example for a peptide insulin, and we use insulin as a treatment for diabetic patients. I disagree with that treatment, but it's there, it's a treatment. Same thing with semaglutide or these brands for peptides, for weight control.
[34:23] Briar: Epozine pec.
[34:25] Fedrico: Yeah, the molecule cannot be patented. The vehicle or the way of applying it or using it, that's what can be patented. So whenever the pharma industry can develop something like that and they see there's an interest, because pharma industries, there are some of the ones that really do research with peptides, and they just say like, this peptide doesn't work, this doesn't work, this doesn't work. And maybe these I'll keep in my research areas. And then I will work with them and let's see if we can develop something to patent it. But this is the thing with peptides. I think it's very exciting and it's very simplistic. Most of the peptides, we produce them ourselves. One of the most popularized BPC 157, we produce.
[35:12] Briar: I'm on that one.
[35:13] Federico: We produce it in our GI and that's a naturally occurring peptide, right? The thing is that either we stop producing it or we can use it locally or in another way so that it can trigger regeneration in our tissues. And so that's the thing with peptides. The other problem is that we don't have enough clinical studies. But it goes back to the same that I just mentioned. We don't have enough clinical studies because if something isn't patentable, like it's why should I invest into running clinical trials, which is very expensive, by the way. So I think it's very exciting. I think it will grow and keep just trending upwards. And that's why the pharma industry is also jumping into finding a way to being able to patent some of these peptides and doing research. So I think it's going to stick.
[36:07] Briar: Interesting. Everyone I've spoken to who's on peptides, like raves about it. So I was like, okay, I'll give it a go. I went to see Dr. Naset, DNA clinic and went on three peptides. So I've got the muscle recovery one. So the one that you mentioned and what's the other one, Olivia? Why are there so many long letters and numbers? I have to like, send her my health.
[36:33] Olivia: [36:32 inaudible] Beta4.
[36:34] Briar: Yes. So that's another like muscle recovery one.
[36:37] Olivia: GHK
[36:39] Federico: Cu yeah.
[36:40] Briar: The copper one. So that's for like hair and skin. So I just started that one. And the muscle recovery ones, I feel like way, like better, like fresher, got more energy, able to exercise more, I was having like, almost like pain, like muscle pain from like, I think all the weightlifting and stuff that I was doing. So that's been interesting as well. But yeah, I was looking and seeing that there's not like a whole heap of research and things like this. So I think it's interesting what you say about like, big pharma.
[37:17] Federico: It's complicated.
[37:18] Briar: Are you on peptides?
[37:20] Federico: Yeah, so I cycle them. So sometimes I use peptides and sometimes I just get off. Since there are not like standardized protocols, unfortunately, it's still like, what should I do? And based off the physician knowledge and like gathering knowledge from all over the world, and try to see what's the best to be applied. But they are not like, really well human RCTs or randomized controlled trials that can show the effect. And for safety, there are a lot of studies or at least enough studies for some peptides in terms of safety, but not in terms of efficacy. So sometimes it becomes an anecdotal, right? There are some research for some peptides in Russian because Russian started researching peptides, I would say probably back in the eighties, nineties. So there is some research there in Russia that has been done. China has also done some good research, but sometimes we don't have access to it. So it's also a language barrier. And so I think there's a lot more data than what we can gather. But I also think that more data is going to come.
[38:31] Briar: And the other advanced therapies you said you were most excited about, what were they again?
[38:36] Federico: I would say gene therapies.
[38:38] Briar: Gene therapies. So let's dive into this, like, what is gene therapy?
[38:42] Federico: So it's basically, we were talking about the genome. This is a code. Once you can read all of that code for one patient or one person, you can identify if there are some mistakes in these codes. These are mutations. Sometimes there are simple mutations where you just change like one word of the code or the recipe, but that can have a huge impact, right? So our genes are always being read by a system that helps produce a protein out of there. So when there's a mistake in this code, the only way right now to repair it is by adding a copy of that gene that will allow it to express the right way. Because if that gene is not being expressed the right way, the protein is probably misfolded or it's incomplete. So just as we mentioned with the peptides, it travels and it has an effect on the tissue.
[39:42] So you don't have this with this broken code. So what gene therapies are doing is helping to providing you with this new code for a specific gene or for multiple genes for you to produce those proteins. So for longevity, this is becoming quite exciting. There are no proper protocols yet. But I think this is one of the most exciting areas of research for the upcoming maybe 10, 20 years at least. Because now you have the opportunity to make your body behave differently and let's say to correct those mistakes in your code, which is amazing. So from flat, it went to dynamic.
[40:30 Briar: Interesting. So what do you think would be like some of the best kind of use cases of gene therapy in the future in like 20 years’ time?
[40:38] Federico: The most natural one and the most needed is genetic rare diseases. So if there's a specific disease linked to a specific gene, when these gene is mutated, then a disease can present. And sometimes there are metabolic diseases that are completely fatal or not compatible with life or very disrupting with the development of a baby. So I think this is the first use case where I see that we can really help patients, by just helping them express this protein to recover from a disease that so far you cannot recover. So I think this is the best use case. And then of course, we can think about longevity genes, right? So how can I overexpress a longevity gene that I know is protective, or how can I mitigate or downregulate a gene that I know can make me age faster?
[41:39] So I think this is also going to become very common in the upcoming years. And there's going to be a lot of data and a lot of research, and a lot of people say like, yeah, let's do it. It's very safe. It has been researched for around 50 years. And the way that it works is you use a virus, you put the information inside of the virus, so the virus, it doesn't cause disease in humans. At least some of the virus that are used. And then you put that gene inside of the virus, so you create the right copy for that gene that is mutated. You put it into the virus, and then the virus will use the systems that they have to infect, and now we call it transfection. So they will transfect that information into the cell so that this gene can start expressing. So just to make it simple.
[42:31] Briar: Wow. So interesting. Thanks for, I feel like I'm in like some science class right now. I'm like fascinated by all of this.
[42:36] Federico: There like a thin line, right, with science fiction?
[42:38] Briar: Yeah. Wow. What about like designer babies? Like crisper, like this is a form of gene therapy, right? Where you can pick and choose what kind of genes you want your baby to have. So if you want them to be smarter, or if you want to omit perhaps certain diseases that they might be, yeah, that they might potentially get. Like, what's your thoughts about this?
[43:03] Federico: I think there's, I'm not sure if it's a company or a research group in China that they already did that.
[43:12] Briar: I think you got put in prison, right? The guy that did it.
[43:15] Federico: Yeah.
[43:15] Briar: Yeah, yeah. But I think he's out now.
[43:18] Federico: So I think there's always a connection between ethics and how research advances, right?
[43:25] Briar: Correct. Yes.
[43:27] Federico: It becomes very complicated because I can never be in a position, or if I had to be in a position of a patient where you know that you do genetic screening and you know that you have both of the mutations on both ends, father and mother, and then it's going to be a yes or yes that the gene is going to be expressed in that baby. It's like very natural. I would, for sure choose to avoid it. When it comes to choose the color of your eyes, skin and your IQ and stuff like that, there are a lot of claims that can be done because this is polygenic. It's still very hard. I'm not sure. I mean, I think it comes all down to ethics and I think it will exist. And we are already very close to see that, like widely used, to be honest. But I don't think I have like a clear position on that.
[44:29] Briar: And the term longevity is going through a bit of a trend right now, you might say. And Dubai is very much positioning themselves as a longevity hub. Like where do you sort of foresee this going? Because I even saw it when I started talking about it three years ago, I was thinking like, how do we change it from being almost like this sick care system, especially in America, that we find ourselves living in rather than a healthcare system, which essentially what it should be. And when I first started having these discussions, people were like, oh, yeah, like we need this like community movement and stuff like this. And now it seems like every second post on my Instagram feed, although maybe it's just the algorithms feeding me more of what I love, is to do with wellness, with longevity and with this kind of trend, like, are you seeing a lot more interest in your space?
[45:21] Federico: 100%. I think that first of all, we are becoming more conscious about the topic. I think new generations are more concerned about going back to basics and to the roots and to the cause of things. So to avoiding the development of disease. And I think this is really where longevity comes into play. So how can we live better for a longer period of time? But again, we know that by doing the basic stuff, we can live up to age 95 very healthy. Do you want to go up to 100, 110, 120? Okay. Maybe advanced therapeutics at some point will allow us to get there, but I think that right now we cannot forget that longevity always linked to the world health span. And as soon and as younger as we start, and I'm talking now about preconception, I'm not even talking about for kids and when you're young and the microbiome and the nutrition, I'm talking about preconception. So you need to be actually prepared because we were talking about epigenetics.
[46:32] So whatever we are surrounded off is going to have an impact in our body. And that's actually like given to the upcoming generations because that's inherited. So I think that we need to understand that whatever we are doing right now, it's going to have an impact in the future generations. So it starts with taking care of yourself even before thinking of having kids. But I think that it's a topic that it's not only trending. I think it's going to stay for, I would say unlimited time. Everyone is first of all scared about death. That's very normal. That's like a survival type of thing that we have as humans. And I think that this is not going to stop. You can see the trends in how investors are jumping into the field of longevity. And I think it will go from 5 billion to up to 5 trillion in the next 20 years.
[47:35] Briar: Which is great.
[47:36] Federico: Which is amazing. Yeah.
[47:37] Briar: And the space is just, it opens everybody up for more research, more opportunities.
[47:41] Federico: Yeah. 100%
[47:42] Briar: More inventions.
[47:43] Federico: And that will translate into health. But if we can get that at a population level and being able to like deploy it like in a better strategy, I think that's going to have a huge impact for humanity.
[47:58] Briar: I think so many people still have a very outdated way of thinking when it comes to thinking of their health span and living longer. Like I was speaking at an event once, and I said at the end, oh, put up your hand if you want to live to be a hundred. And like, nobody put up their hand except three people. And at first I thought people might have been shy, right? So I did it again. I was like, put up your hand if you want to live to a hundred. Like, people were looking at me, they genuinely did not want to live to a hundred because when they thought of being 100, they thought of being like very frail and sickly and not a pleasant way of living. But you are saying that by in the future even and by obviously taking care of ourselves in the way that we can take care of ourselves today and in the future as the technology's advance and things like this, that living to 120, 130 like could be possible, right? What about me living to like 300 years?
[48:56] Federico: We have to jump into your topic that maybe I'm not very familiar with transhumanism and like other things. I mean, biologically, let's say I don't see that as impossible. Probably I'm not the best to talk about this because it's not my area of expertise on how to take it that far.
[49:18] Briar: Next level.
[49:19] Federico: Yeah. Yeah. But I definitely think that biologically it's possible, so you see animals that can live up to 150, 200, and like whales and turtles and so we have the example. So biology has an answer. We just don't understand it. So I think it's biologically possible.
[49:42] Briar: Interesting.
[49:43] Federico: That's it.
[49:43] Briar: That gives me hope. I'm very determined to make this happen. If it's the last thing I do on my life is try and extend it.
[49:53] Federico: And imagine the knowledge that you can generate in 200 years but staying sharp and fit and that would be amazing.
[50:01] Briar: Wouldn't it be amazing? And it's just even amazing to think about how quickly the world as evolved, like, we had the internet smartphones, like, oh gosh, just even thinking back to the life we used to live in like the 1800s or the 1900s, and how different our existence was compared to what it is today. So it is like one in five babies used to die. Like, that's crazy. So with that in mind, it always makes me think, okay, well I need to keep my mind open to possibilities in the future, especially with like artificial intelligence and all of these incredible things that are happening and the research that's happening in this longevity space.
[50:40] Federico: The only thing that's like more my personal way of seeing things is that as we keep growing in this field, because there's a lot of investment here, I think that sociology and the way that we will all interact if we can really achieve this needs the same amount of research. So how are we going to have more people living in a limited space? Because it'll become a limited space, right? So now we're talking about regenerative agriculture. Now we're talking about printing food in a lab. Now we're talking about different stuff that we need to also have in mind because otherwise we are not going to keep with the pace. But the first one that needs to be solved is the biological side of how can I live longer? Because I would say that a lot of people, maybe in their eighties right now, they are probably very wealthy and they just want to invest in this, like how can I live longer? So it makes sense that the first issue that you need to solve is, how can I live longer? But then you have a lot of things that need to be solved at the same time. So it becomes a more complicated equation, but also more exciting.
[51:50] Briar: It is exciting. A bit of a challenge, you know?
[51:53] Federico: Maybe we end up in Mars.
[51:55] Briar: Well, I was going to suggest that, but I'm kind of keen to go to Mars, but it needs to have a nail salon and maybe not as much dust and a few things like this, few tweaks we need to make until I'll go up there.
[52:09] Federico: So at least I know that my next, or one of my next companies or ventures in the future is going to be in the area space field.
[52:17] Briar: You'd go up to space.
[52:18] Federico: Yeah, of course. But I'm still planning to have more kids, so I've been already told that they need to be at least in their twenties so I can do that. I'm okay.
[52:28] Briar: Would they go with you?
[52:30] Federico: Probably, yeah.
[52:30] Briar: Do they like space?
[52:32] Federico: No. I mean, those kids are not born yet.
[52:35] Briar: Future children.
[52:37] Federico: But they will like it.
[52:38] Briar: Raise them as soon as they start to like space. Amazing. So what can someone listening today, what do you think is the first thing they should do if they're interested in longevity, living longer, healthier lives?
[52:53] Federico: I would say that trying to find that self-motivation that's step one and creating a positive mindset around health. If you become like only obsessed about a topic without having a clear idea on why you're jumping into it, I'm not sure that's going to be sustainable. So I think you need to find first your mission, your personal reasons on why you want to live healthier and longer. And if that's there and you have like that goal, I think that's going to be way easier. Then once you have that and you have like the right mindset, going back to the basics, just like clear all of the basic steps, which research has shown very well, like stop smoking, stop drinking, exercise, eat nutritious food. I mean, it's very clear, you know? And then sleep. If you add sleep, that could add potentially another two years to your lifespan. So if you control that, you're already probably 25 years up in terms of your lifespan, right? So I think that's like the basics and I think that it might sound disappointing for a lot of people.
[54:06] Briar: Everyone's like, what's the magic pill?
[54:07] Federico: Exactly. Everyone. That's what I was going to say. Everyone wants the magic pill. For sure something will come that will have a huge impact in terms of reversing aging or clearing senescent cells or avoiding senescent in general, which is aging of cells. But as of now, I think we have the proper tools to at least extend our life to a healthier life, up close to 100 or 120 easily. And we have it right in front of us, so we just have to start doing it.
[54:39] Briar: So if I want to come by the clinic, like in the next couple of weeks, like what's something cool I can do?
[54:45] Federico: Well, I would say that from the advanced therapeutics, of course there's a procedure that we do that combines [54:52 inaudible] with oxygenation and [54:54 inaudible] of the blood. Interesting. This is something that is really interesting in terms. I think this is also something that will grow very fast in terms of research. And it's basically how can I help your body to clean up some toxins and stimulate the regeneration process in your body? And then how can I make some genes express or how can I create a mild stress in your body that will make your cells express differently to produce more energy, to produce more antioxidants, to control inflammation, to mobilize stem cells? So I think these type of procedures are very safe, very accessible, and I think that it's something worth trying.
[55:42] Briar: So what does that look like? Do I lie in a chamber or how long does it take?
[55:46] Federico: No, it takes around one hour. You are basically laying down or in a regular medical bed. Then we literally pump out blood from one of your arms. We pass it through a specialized filter, we add there the oxygen and the ozone, and then we pump it back into your other arm.
[56:09] Briar: You hear that, Olivia, it's going to be lots of blood.
[56:13] Federico: You don't like blood? We can use an eye mask, we have some patients headphones. We have some patients that want to do it that way.
[56:27] Briar: It's alright. It's going to help us live longer and healthier lives. Like I'll do anything to get to my year 300.
[56:34] Federico: There's a nice study from a group in the US. I think it was published one month ago or two months ago. One of the researchers is a good friend, and they showed that by exchanging your complete plasma, you can reverse biological aging, which still, I would say the way that we measure biological aging, it's still very weird and probably inconclusive, but it shows a trend, like something's happening in your body and and your cells are behaving differently. And they showed that for people that are like in the higher rangers or unhealthier rangers in some metrics, they can reduce biological age by up to, I think 3.2 years.
[57:17] Briar: Oh, wow.
[57:18] Federico: So it's really interesting. I think science is getting there and these type of procedures are very simple to perform. Of course, those are medical procedures, so that needs to be performed by a professional team, a medical team and they need to have the expertise on how to perform them. But I think there's something interesting there.
[57:39] Briar: So I'm 27 at the moment, biologically, or if you want to think I'm chronologically 27 as well, that's fine by me. So I'm 27 at the moment. So then if I start getting this kind of therapy, you're saying I could be like even three years younger because I want to enter the rejuvenation Olympics.
[57:58] Federico: That's also a very good question. So there's like a limit to rejuvenation that it's first of all healthy. And second, like a limit, because there's like a baseline for your cells. So I would say that it would potentially help you more as you age chronologically to just like preserve that biological age, if that makes sense, instead of going even further in terms of your bio.
[58:26] Briar: It's not like Benjamin button sort of thing.
[58:27] Federico: Exactly.
[58:29] Briar: Well, thank you so much for coming on. This was super, super interesting and I'll definitely come and see you at the clinics next week. It's opposite my house so it's nice and easy.
[58:37] Federico: Thank you for inviting me and I'll be very happy to host you.
[58:40] Briar: Amazing, thank you.
[58:41] Federico: Thank you.
About Dr. Federico Von Son
Dr. Federico von Son is a seasoned physician, private scientist, and clinical longevist with a distinguished career spanning metabolic health, multi-omics, regenerative medicine, and translational science. A serial health-tech entrepreneur and startup advisor, he is also an accomplished medical educator and thought leader in the field of longevity.
As the co-founder and former CEO of three genomics companies, Dr. von Son has spearheaded advancements in direct-to-consumer genomic services, therapeutics, population genetics research and drug discovery. He has been awarded research grants to advance genomics initiatives in Latin America and has held various leadership positions within international medical societies.
Currently, Dr. von Son serves as the head of Longevity Medicine at Lifespan Clinics in Dubai, advisory and clinical development at Tripple Helix Int. and as Scientific Director at ISIENA LatAm, Founder of the Regenera Symposium LatAm, and faculty member at both the Geneva College of Longevity Sciences (Switzerland) and Loonga, a pioneering longevity education platform for Latin America. His work focuses on forging robust alliances to propel the field of longevity forward for societal benefit.
