#E48 What Type of Ancestor Do You Want To Be? With Adah Parris
About Adah Parris
Adah Parris is the Chair of Mental Health First Aid England, and a keynote speaker, polymath, anti-disciplinary artist, tech futurist, and activist. Adah has worn many hats over the years, which has allowed her to form and share hollistic but unique and fresh perspectives on topics like technology, AI, human relationships, and more.
Read the HYPERSCALE transcript
[00:00] Briar: Hi everybody, and welcome to another episode of Hyperscale. It's your host Briar Prestidge. And today I've got Adah Parris with me and I am very excited to be talking to her. So welcome to the show. I think you're calling in from London, is that correct?
[00:17] Adah: I am. Thank you for having me on the show Briar. This has been a conversation that has been building up for a while, so I'm really glad that we finally got here.
[00:25] Briar: Absolutely. So your work is fascinating and when people are doing research and they're reading the articles you've written and they're watching your TEDx talk, what do you think is the ultimate thing that you want people to take away?
[00:40] Adah: Great opening question and it's really interesting because what you just asked makes me think about the way that I keep myself grounded. And I always start with a quote, it's the same quote that I've been using for years, which is, "the purpose of a storyteller is not to tell you how to think, but to give you questions to think upon." So for me, success of anything that I do is that people leave with questions about what they think, why they think that, where are their own biases and what have you coming into it. So I never really go in and say that I'm an expert. I'm really good at asking really good questions, deep questions that sometimes we are afraid to ask ourselves, avoid asking, or just too busy to really jump into those questions.
[01:34] Briar: I can tell this is going to be a good podcast because I've always hated small talk. I think there's nothing worse than when you sit down at a table and someone's talking to you about, I don't know, their favorite makeup brand or boys or whatever it is, and you're like, tell me what makes you tick.
[01:50] Adah: Yes and definitely and because in the last 18 months [I] finally understand how my brain works. I am dyslexic. I have ADHD and borderline autistic. So now I understand why I couldn't understand small talk and I just go straight into the, well, tell me what you think about this subject. What makes you? Are you happy? Not what do you do? I'm not really interested in job titles. It's, are you happy? What's the biggest problem that you have right now? Where can we really get a sense of who each other is other than what's written on our websites or our LinkedIn profiles or all of those things?
[02:32] Briar: And as the Chair of Mental Health First Aid England, tell us more about your role in that position. What exactly is it that you do?
[02:41] Adah: So mental Health First Aid England is a social enterprise and we train people to be mental health and suicide first-aiders. What that means is we're not therapists. We are not clinicians. What we do is we are equipping people with the skills to be able to help be a first port of call for somebody who may be experiencing varying degrees of mental health in a particular situation. My role as Chair and I've been… I just absolutely love what I do. So my role as Chair is to help with the governance of the organization and to be provocative and to get us to think differently as an organization. So I was invited to join during the pandemic and you can imagine there were lots of different things that were happening at the time. It was pre-George Floyd.
[03:37] Adah: I was also, I am also a woman who is going through menopause. And so the things that were front of mind in those times was to really look at what's my remit? Why am I saying yes to this? And some very personal reasons, at that time, I have had three burnouts because I just pushed myself so hard to try and keep up with everything else. I was going through menopause as a 50-something year-old woman, where society doesn't really talk about that. And of course, I was born in this country, in the UK, and being on the receiving end of racism and microaggressions and invalidations and all of those things, in a time when we are also at that time in a pandemic where everybody's going through some form of existential crisis, it was an opportunity for me to lean in.
[04:33] Adah: And one of the things that the organization says is my whole self, how do you bring your whole self to everything that you do? And I went, this is an opportunity for me to really lean in and in many ways put my money where my mouth is. I've been talking about it for a long time. And now to be in a position to say, these are some of the things that I think that we need to be talking about. We don't talk enough openly and transparently about the impact that the work environment has on our mental health and wellbeing about the impact that culture and society has on those things. And so it just became, I joined and I said that I would love us to get to a place where we as an organization are proactive rather than reactive. And we are encouraging workplaces to see that they have a duty of care and a responsibility for the mental health and wellbeing of their people. And that goes further into emerging technologies.
[05:38] Briar: I remember during the pandemic, it was like everything was on steroids, wasn't it? And it really did bring I think a lot of these very important topics to light and front and center as they always should have been. What do you think that workplaces should be doing in order to promote or encourage the mental health of their employees?
[06:02] Adah: At Mental Health First Aid England, we see that good mental health is a social justice issue. It's a right that we all have. And as a workplace, because we spend so much time in the work environment, whether that's in an office or now increasingly in this hybrid way of working, is one of the things the pandemic taught us is that people want more of them to be included. They want to feel like they belong. And so how do you adapt your cultures? And how do you create a space, a work environment that is increasingly global, that is also a place of psychological safety? And what that means is that people can choose to bring their full selves to the place, they feel that they are included, they feel that they belong. So recognizing that, take the current economic crisis we're in, in the UK we've got the Cost of Living crisis, and I'm working and consulting with various organizations as their external diversity and inclusion consultant.
[07:04] Adah: And what we're seeing is that more and more people are looking at flexible work and more and more people are looking at tapping into the support of a mental health first aider, because they are stressed about, there's not much money in certain markets, there's not much opportunity for growth and development and all these different things. I think one of the things to recognize is that nothing happens in isolation. And we tend to forget that, and we go, right, this is my work site, this is my work persona. This is who I am at work, this is who I am at home. We can't separate. There is that TV show Severance, which talks about, separating the work and the personal. We can't do that in reality. And so for work environments, they have to recognize that we bring all of these things together.
[07:54] Adah: And the same reason that you employed me, if you create the opportunities for me to continue to do the things that make me who I am, then you're going to get the best out of me. Because of the constraints of time and pressure and focus that there tends to be this external: “This is who we are on the outside,” when behind closed doors, it's something very different. What you are actually doing is you're crushing people. And sometimes I'm so bold enough to say that by not doing something around this, by not taking mental health and psychological safety seriously, you are actively contributing to the decline of the mental health and wellbeing of your people. And that's quite a bold statement, but people are going, okay, I get it.
[08:47] Briar: It's very interesting and profound what you're saying. I just even think about how my leadership style changed throughout the pandemic. And I think of other CEOs, I run a personal branding and PR agency, so we work one-on-one with a lot of executives. I think what we saw is that when people were in their houses, they were interacting with people on Zoom, it broke that kind of third wall. It took off people's suits. They started to be a little bit more casual without the tie. We got to see people in their home environments, and we really did want that very authentic kind of leadership. We wanted people to tell us the truth no matter what the truth was. And we wanted clarity about the situation. And I do really think that has been something good to come out of the pandemic, alongside the fact that we are very connected now around the world, it's very easy to do business no matter where you are based. Because we've got Zoom and that's quite normal.
[09:47] Adah: I completely agree. In many ways it probably sounds a little counterintuitive, but in many ways the digital technology humanized us a little bit more because we had to take off the persona of this is who I am in the office. I'm the boss, I'm the manager, I'm this, I'm the leader, the CEO and realize that we are all human and we are complex and messy and beautiful and we have cats and dogs and children that past the door goes and all of these things, which we had this external facade, has had to drop. And we've had to go, it's okay, I don't know. I can be vulnerable, I can be smart, I can run a business, I can do all of these things. I can stand on global stages and talk about things, but also when the door goes, I've got to jump up and stop that.
[10:50] Adah: And there are all of these humanizing things and I think this is where I have the internal conflict because increasingly I see both sides as the potential of technology, of specifically digital technology in this, that it has the ability to help, it has the ability to widen diversity, to capacity, to help us humanize in some ways, but it also has the capacity for harm. And I think that that comes down to how we define technology. So for me, technology helps us to do a couple of things, helps us to understand and navigate our relationship with ourselves, with others and with our environment. And if we remember that, that's the core of what we're trying to do is to facilitate relationships, then the tools can be different. And that's okay.
[11:50] Briar: It very much is a, a double-edged sword, isn't it? And that's why I just find technology so fascinating. And that's why I'm also in disbelief that people aren't planning more. I was thinking today actually about the word time and about how ridiculous it is that politics is usually only four years in the party. And we are talking about things like artificial intelligence, robotics, nanotechnology extending or prolonging our health span. There are so [many] wonderful things that emerging tech can bring. But if we're constantly just four years on either side, like what real things can we put in place during that time? And I think it goes back to what you were saying earlier about how we do have a mental health pandemic at the moment. And I think part of the reason is how do we expect people to plan for the future if they're so worried about where their next meal is coming from, if they're so worried about how they're going to pay their power bill this month. We can't expect people to give their best if we're putting them in an environment which is just ultimately going to make them their worst.
[13:09] Adah: Yeah, I think it goes further than that because I think rather than start by focusing on the time, it's the decisions that are made that are implemented in the design of these technologies. So a couple of weeks ago, a friend of mine runs a beautiful event called the AI Goosebumps Club and he talks about: “can AI, artificial intelligence have goosebumps?” And so what he does is he gets three speakers to come up with a thought experiment that is usually around linking or questioning the relationship between AI and a human characteristic. And so mine was, can AI be patient? And so the ability to have these conversations and to really start to, it's not about the time, it's about understanding what are the ethical decisions that are baked into emerging technologies, what's the motivation behind them, the real motivation behind developing these things?
[14:13] Adah: Just because we can, doesn't mean we should. I watched Oppenheimer the other week, and it gave me again another moment of, we are increasingly developing things and pushing them out without real regard for the long-term consequence of these ideas. It's why I now start to look at this merging of digital technology and nature because if we look at what happens in the world of conservation, it takes years for things to change. And so we have to think about the long-term knock-on effect of what we are doing, not just the timeframe, but who is making the decisions about what decisions the AI is going to make or the emerging technologies is going to make. Where are the boundaries of who's going to be included and who's going to be left out? And that's not about time, that's about ethics and lived experience and hierarchies and all power structures. Those are the things that also need to be discussed at the very start.
[15:25] Briar: It makes me think of when Apple released their health tracker and because it was designed by men, all of the things that it measured were all, well, it didn't measure period data, for instance. And this is ultimately something that could really help women live their life to the fullest. So let's talk a little bit about these people that are making the decisions. Even as you were speaking, I was instantly thinking about OpenAI and their board. Some might argue that they are making huge leaps and bounds and really making decisions that are going to impact our future. Yet for some reason we've got an all-male, similar age background type board, like that's not very diverse.
[16:11] Adah: It's really interesting when people ask me to talk about the future of whatever, because that supposes that there is one future that we are all working towards and that there's only one version of the future. I went, yeah, but whose perspective are you talking about? So when we had the Silicon Valley booms and I mean, look, lots of great technology came out of there, but lots of also frivolous things came out of that. And lots of things that actually made certain lived experiences different, more difficult or excluded them because how can you define a problem when you are sitting in the ivory tower going, oh yeah, well I'm looking over there going, well that's a problem. I'm going to create an app that's going to solve that for those people.
[17:01] Adah: And so using those people as research groups is wrong. What we should be doing is having different voices around the table to be able to redefine the problem from various perspectives. It's why a lot of my work in this area really started by having a look at blockchain. This is going back 2017-ish, looking at blockchain and going, oh, I can see how this will help, not as a digital technology, but as an anthropological psychological framework of how we could create systems and structures that help us to ensure that we do have a balance of voices and perspectives around the table to be able to redefine things so that we can say, if we are going to create an app that we say is going to change whatever, then we know that we have taken a holistic approach to understanding what that problem is for whom and what is needed rather than what I think I can make money from.
[18:16] Briar: You are right. I think about when you ask people like describe the future to me, describe how you want it to be. And everybody's got a different idea as to how they want the future. Some people want more nature, other people might want, I don't know, a digital twin that augments all of their technology and makes it easier. Everybody's got a different idea in mind. And I think you're absolutely right. So how do we bring some of these more diverse voices to the table? Like, what really do we need to be doing in order to make this happen? Does it start in the education system? Do we need to go and I don't know, break down OpenAI’s door and be like, hey, get some more diverse people on your board, like, what should we be doing?
[19:01] Adah: I mean, look, yes, there needs to be more diverse people. So I'm thinking about my future, what I want next and I would love to be on the board of an AI company, to be in that room, to have those conversations. However, there's always also a perception that in order to diversify, it means that somebody is going to lose out. Why? It's actually that there is a lot to gain by having diverse perspectives, diverse ways of seeing, of identities, of cultures. So yes, education system, we're talking, we talk about that all the time. There's STEM, there are mentoring programs, there are, let's get more women in tech, let's get more young black people in tech.
[19:56] Adah: That's okay. But that's not all of it. We all firstly have to admit that we are part of the problem. If we don't hold our hands and go you know what, I'm also part of the problem and maybe some of the reason why I'm part of the problem is because my own ego has a vested interest in ensuring that I am okay, nothing's going to change. You can't say, I want to change things and point your finger over there and go, well, you have to change it. And nothing's going to change for me. I'm going to stay here on this board and it's going to be great. And this is my path. It is about holding the mirror up to ourselves first and foremost. Then if I say that I really want the world, if I truly believe and mean that I want the world, that I am saying externally, then what do I need to change in myself?
[20:55] Adah: Is it my approach? What is it that needs to change in order for that to happen? And how can I look at that change as growth rather than loss? Because I think that a big part of our problem is that, in fact I've looked at this and this. I don't think I've really changed my mind about it. Most of our biggest global problems are caused by perception of value and perception of impact. Who is defining what value is? Who's defining what our North Star is? Well, at the moment, mostly the global north, Silicon Valley was doing that a lot of the time. This is what we're going for, this is where we're heading. You talked about politics, politicians, I mean, I'm sure that's a whole different episode, but politicians decide that this is what we're working towards, this is what we stand for, without taking into consideration that there are different ways of being.
[21:59] Adah: We can't have balance without chaos. We need to have both. And this idea of there is one future, says that there is this idea of a totally balanced collective way of being. I value conversations with people I disagree with because it means that I am open to new perspectives. It means that there may be a nugget in there or something that helps me to question my own beliefs or it may be that somebody changes my mind. It may mean that I actually double down. I go, no, this is what I believe. But if we create organizations that only hire for cultural fit, which is just a very particular type of person, then we're only going to get more of the same.
[22:57] Briar: Absolutely, nothing is black and white. And I just even think of my own personal experience as well, over the past three years. I used to be so against getting a microchip in my hand. I heard that the Swedes were all getting microchips. And I was saying to my boyfriend, like, oh my God, the world is just falling to pieces and the data and everyone's going to get hacked and things like this. And I'm going and getting my microchip this month. So he's calling me a hypocrite. But the way that I saw it is that my thinking just evolved. And of course there are still those things that I don't agree with. Of course, there's still, it's like what we talked about before about technology being a double-edged sword. But at the end of the day, I decided this was something that I wanted to just experience and converse with people about and things like this. And what I'm finding at the moment is that I love what you're talking about here and I think that the world seems very polarized at the moment on social media. Would you agree?
[23:56] Adah: Well, you used the word earlier, there's a lot of binaries and life doesn't operate in binaries, not really, because nothing happens in isolation. So the idea as humans, as a species, we believe that everything needs to fit in these nice little boxes to make us feel comfortable otherwise, it's total chaos. And actually this planet, this galaxy came from chaos. So who are we to think that we are the ones that can dictate how things happen? You're talking about the microchip. I had to write some notes down because you made me think about the other thing that is in many organizations, many systems and governing systems and structures, people seem to have this idea that you can't change your mind. You're allowed to change your mind. That's okay, as long as there's transparency and understanding, and understanding that there will always be a knock on effect of everything that we do, which is why I ask the question, what type of ancestor do you want to be? Because we have to be conscious in the understanding that the decisions we make or the ones that we decide we're not going to make will have a knock on effect that will last longer than us.
[25:18] Adah: So this idea that everything has to be one way, one view, one lens is pushing us further and further down a really tight funnel. But I worry about what is going to happen and who's going to be left out. And while saying this I'm also quite optimistic because I'm having conversations like this and having conversations with 1500 people [at a] conference with people in digital advertising where the whole theme is regeneration. That gives me hope.
[26:03] Briar: I think even just to expand on what you're saying as well, what I find quite fascinating about society these days is not only do people think that you can't change your mind, but they think that because you think one thing, then you also think these things as well.
[26:18] Adah: So I remember when I first started speaking on stages, going back double-digit years and I used to stand really still and go, this is who I am and this is who you want me to be. And I wouldn't have worn these earrings and I'm going to be and… I used to forget and get it wrong and everything. Now I am very open and quite happy that sometimes as I've prepared my talk, I've listened to a podcast, I've read something in the morning that has put a question in my head. So whilst I'm on stage, suddenly you'll see me going, wait, I'm not sure I think that anymore. So I'm thinking in real-time. When I started out speaking, people just go, you can't do that. They want an expert. They want you to know exactly what you think.
[27:13] Adah: And I said, but that's not how life is. And it goes back to what you said in the beginning, this outward persona of: “I have it all clued up and I’m an expert and this is the faith that I present when actually we're messy and silly and intelligent and curious and we need to make space for all of that. When we are looking at organizational culture in terms of mental health and wellbeing and diversity of lived experience, of socioeconomic background, of all of those things that when we are programming and coding and developing emerging technologies, when we are launching things, that same messiness needs to go into everything.
[28:01] Briar: What about algorithms and the way that we interact with algorithms these days? Because there has been some research that shows that algorithms are literally rewiring our brain, obviously what we enjoy, the algorithms feed us more of this. Also, jumping in on what you were saying about that curiosity and having that kind of learning mindset, I think these days, we've got our phones, we're watching TikTok, we're watching Netflix, like we're on social media and I just can't believe all the hate that people get. Like they'll sit behind their phones and just comment like, all of this hate, and it's like, well dude, like why don't you go outside and work on yourself or I don't know, get a hobby or something like this. Do you think that the way that we're interacting with technology these days is good for us and good for our long-term trajectory?
[28:54] Adah: It's difficult to say if something's good or bad just as binary as that. I wouldn't put my hand up and say that any technology is inherently good or inherently bad. Going back to what we're saying, it is a combination, a series of experiments, a combination of different things that determine how things are developed, how they are, how they are developed, how they are rolled out, how they are then branded. Because that's huge, the narrative that comes with the perception of this or the intended use of this technology or this idea. So it is the old and very against guns and everything, but the analogy, the only one I can think of is that the gun is not the problem.
[30:02] Adah: It's the hands and it's who has the gun in their hand. And it's not just that they also need the bullet. So they need to have all of the different things and then still make a conscious decision about how they use that tool, how they use that technology. We saw in the movie Oppenheimer, those moments of awakening, of oh this is bigger than I thought, this is bigger than me. I think that is, when we are looking at these things, I think earlier you mentioned the words wonder in awe. I think we've forgotten some of that as well. I am fascinated by and drawn to people who still have that wonder and awe and who believe in things that are bigger than ourselves as humans. Was it a friend? I remember a friend went to South by Southwest a few years ago and he heard this, I'm not going to say it verbatim, but he heard a quote in one of the talks that he messaged me and said this reminds me of you, the things that make us feel, let me try and remember. The things that make us feel small, make us human. The things that make us feel large, make us arrogant. If we look at us as humans on this planet, we're tiny inconsequential in the grand schemes of the universe, and yet we feel that we can go and colonize places and do all of this stuff.
[31:50] Adah: We have to be able to recognize that it is through remembering that there is bigger than us, there is more than us, and we are part of an interconnected system. That what we are creating is creating us. When we forget that, that's when the doom and gloom and all the other things start to happen. And that is why I do the work that I do. That's why I've become more vocal. It's why I've recently just developed a leadership coaching program. So what I've done is taken the 12 of my most thought-provoking big idea talks and turned it into a 12-week coaching program for leadership, limited, just because we need to have these conversations. We need to think differently.
[32:40] Briar: How do you like your best ideas? How do you think differently? For me, I like to do nothing or go for a walk. Is there anything that you like doing in order to get these creative thoughts in your head?
[32:55] Adah: Yes, a few. So I love a flotation tank, so a sensory deprivation tank, which is just a beautiful space just to let go and be. I have recently discovered a real passion for art, so paintings, sketching, writing haikus, I didn't know that I could. I dance, I love dancing. I'll put some music on and dance. And I've also discovered this really interesting ability to… if I get on a bus and it's usually, the sweet spot is 30 minutes, for some reason, when I get on the bus, I suddenly start having all of these ideas. So I usually have something to write down all my notes, write down my ideas, but I can write the structure of a talk while sitting on the bus. And it feels like I have removed myself from the digital technology, doing research online, and I've got back into the human space of… This is social media before we had the technology, Facebooks and what have you. I'm surrounded by other living, breathing humans who are going about their day, having their conversations. And those little snippets just inspire me.
[34:16] Briar: It's nice to pay attention to your surroundings, isn't it? And I know this seems like such an almost weird thing for me to bring up, but I went through a period of time where I just felt like I was so stuck inwards and stuck on my phone and I had to really quite disconnect actually from my environment. And I felt I had to really make a special effort to listen to the trees or smell or feel the wind and reconnect with nature. And I think part of this comes from living in big cities. I live between Dubai and New York, but I've also started doing something which my colleague has told me is a little bit strange, but sometimes I like to think of myself as already dead. And then I take that feeling that it gives me and I live my day with so much more excitement and appreciation and curiosity and just fun.
[35:10] Adah: I can see how that works. What came to mind when you were talking about that is the idea of vision quests. So vision quests are usually rites of passage that come from indigenous and First Nations people. And usually there is an element of a solitary, very different than the hero's journey narrative, let me say. But there's this idea of going out into nature wherever, to be by yourself, to have these moments. So many people will recognize it through aboriginal walkabouts or with the Cogi tribe in Columbia. It is people, they have a process where people go into a cave for nine years and there's total darkness and solitude and the silence and you really attune yourself to the vibrations, whatever you may think about it, this planet vibrates, right?
[36:12] Adah: So tune yourself, tune out everything else and just allow yourself to really connect with your senses and perceive what's happening. So others do go out into nature, do a Vipassana, which is a 10-day silent retreat. Now as somebody who talks a lot, people go, I'll do that. But it's this ability to stop all the noise and just connect, be present. That's mindfulness, that's meditation for me, is that ability to create space and time for us to really witness ourselves, what is happening, what are the sounds that I hear? So when I wake up in the morning, one of the first things I do is a very intentional listening to the sounds, my soundscape. So what's the first sound I hear? Usually my stomach rumbling, gurgling, what's the next thing I hear? I can hear my central heating, I can hear the sheets moving, the bedsheets. I can hear the central heating, I can hear my neighbors, I can hear the birds outside, the trains, the cars in the distance. And so just widely, intentionally widening my scope of perception reminds me that I am part of this, not separate from this.
[37:35] Briar: I love that. I'm going to try that tomorrow.
[37:38] Adah: Let me know how it goes.
[37:39] Briar: I'll probably hear my stomach rumbling at the start as well.
[37:44] Adah: There's nothing, I wake up going to say, oh.
[37:47] Briar: I know exactly. You once said that the way that we use technology is as if we're looking for a new religion. What do you mean by that?
[37:58] Adah: Yeah, that was probably about 9, 10 years ago. So I noticed that we were externalizing a lot of things. So I was brought up Catholic to believe in a God who I cannot see that helps me understand my relationship with myself, with others, and with my environment, that ‘external to myself’ agency. There increasingly at the time were more and more digital, social media platforms, all of these things, mobile phones, all these technologies being developed that was, well… AI is now making the decisions for me. I don't have to make the decisions. Artificial intelligence is doing that. At the same time, there seemed to be a, I will say a resurgence in interest in shamanic medicines and plant medicines and those things. And so people would talk about, I am going to do the medicine, I am going to do the work and the plant is going to help me, the sound art, the meditation, the thing external to myself is going to help me find the answers without actually recognizing that the real work…
[39:25] Adah: I think of all those things as turning the tap on. The real work is that we still have to face ourselves and go inside and go, why am I making these decisions? What agency do I have? And so I looked at them as a type of religion because it was this… And that comes from my own lived experience of Catholicism. And the idea that there is this external thing that is responsible, that gives guidance for how I operate and how I show up in the world versus all in contrast to the decisions that I make with my own lived experience, judgment of what is right and wrong. And it felt like there was an increase in the externalization of that.
[40:18] Briar: I want us to jump back a little bit and think about the tech that we have today or the technologies that are starting to get designed and how we are using things. So for instance, it's quite socially acceptable these days to when I say swipe right for instance, what do we think about, we think of dating, whereas back in the day, if you say swipe right, that would've made no sense to anybody about dating. So I want us to think a little bit about like society and how we're sitting on computers and we're getting these technology necks and things that I'm hearing about, but how do you think in the future things are going to be constructed or how do you think we're going to be interacting with technology? Is there a specific technology that you are quite excited about, for instance, that you predict coming to play?
[41:10] Adah: I feel that where we are, I will also distinguish between digital technology and all other ecological virtual technologies because I see them all as technologies. But if we are talking about digital technologies, then I feel that where we are heading is that they are increasingly beginning to replicate nature. So initially technology was A to B. It's, I need to move from here to here and things like blockchain and virtual reality and 360 cameras and all these kind of things are enabling us to try and replicate what we do in the offline world, in the online world. So creating this multidimensional, multifaceted space. So I'll give you an example. I am fascinated by cave paintings and I love caves and cave paintings. And when we first as humans traveled around and we discovered cave paintings, we thought that they were pretty paintings.
[42:11] Adah: What we now understand is that they are also social in context and that many of them were placed in specific locations within the cave that also connected with the acoustics and the resin sounds and energies of the cave. That is what we do with 360 cameras. That is what we do with virtual reality headsets. We create these spaces that enable us to have more multi-dimensional experiences. And I think that's what's going to be on the increase. So rather than it being voice or mobile handsets that we are replicating nature without necessarily giving nature due credit for being a co-designer in know most of the things that we produce.
[43:01] Briar: I like that. And a completely different question for you, but the work that you're doing is obviously very profound and I do also want to hear more. You mentioned at the very start of our conversation about how over the past few months you've really got to I guess get to know yourself a little bit more too. I'm interested to hear more about that, but when you're doing all of this work, there's very profound work for all of these people, for their mental health, like how do you protect your own mental health?
[43:32] Adah: Thank you for asking. Great question because it's important that we do that. And so as I said in the beginning, at that time I've had actually had four burnouts. And what I have become much better at is managing my capacity. So my enthusiasm in contrast to my capacity can be two different things. So I am really good at saying I don't have capacity for that right now. I am really good at saying actually as much as I probably present as an extrovert, I'm actually more introverted than anything else. So I love being around people. I'm very energetic most of the time, not all the time because I'm human, but I also know that I get very tired and I'm exhausted and I have to stop. So being kind to myself and recognizing that self-harm. There are many ways of us self-harming and not being mindful of our own mental health and wellbeing can be a part of that. And we have good intentions of wanting to be there for everybody else and support everybody else. But what they say in the airplane, when the oxygen mask comes down, you have to put your own on first. If you are not good, if you are not in a good place, you cannot be there for anybody else.
[45:06] Adah: And to recognize that people tend to put physical health with mental health in the same brackets. They're not because physical health is that it tends to be, if you are in an office i.e work environment and you have physical first aiders, it's usually, somebody will come to you after something has happened. Mental health, good mental health is that you need to start working on that before you get to that crisis point. So it's a proactive approach to understanding that. So I have a therapist. I don't have to be in crisis, nobody has to be in crisis to have a therapist. We can all have great friends, but it's also something powerful to have somebody who is trained in a very particular way to support you. I have created and hold space sometimes for various communities. That is, I created one. I don't run it, it runs itself. I created a community called Wing Women that is for women and non-binary people that have been running since 2007.
[46:22] Adah: And it's just women who and non-binary people who I've met, who I think, oh my God, you are amazing. You need to meet this person. And so just became this way of facilitating, that gives me so much joy. And that actually feeds me because I am building and facilitating and curating relationships based on trust and transparency. And that also helps my own nervous system to know that I'm surrounded by people who I can trust, who I know are doing good things, who are more intelligent than me and different that also helps with looking after my own mental health because I don't feel like I have to take on everything.
[47:12] Briar: I was having a very similar conversation [with] someone a few days ago actually and they were saying that there was an article that came out recently that said that ladies in Japan who had spent some time in prison wanted to go back to prison because they actually felt like they had more community within prison. And it talked about the loneliness pandemic and how important community is for mental health. And I just thought it was so fascinating when I heard this.
[47:45] Adah: Yeah, there's a great documentary, but I'm sure it's available on many platforms. I won't say one in particular, but it's a documentary about the Blue Zone. And I've forgotten the author and I watched it over Christmas with my mom. It's brilliant because the author, the main protagonist realizes that around the world there are pockets of people who are living to great ages or hundreds and what have you. And he's like, what is their secret? So he travels around the world to immerse himself in these communities to try and understand what is this thing? And what he discovers is that part of it is about community. Being proactive in community is also something that is very vital for our mental health and wellbeing. And so it's not just about the diet and we eat this and I'm going to go to the gym three times a week.
[48:52] Adah: Yes, that's fine. But there is something very powerful and beautiful about being in [a] community. And I actually believe, my personal view is that community also needs to have an offline element. I do worry about things that only happen in the metaverse and only happen online and through Zoom because we lose that sense of ability to look someone directly in the eye and be in the same space and smell someone's perfume or, to physically with consent, touch people and go, oh, so good to see you. I have groups of friends. I was with some the weekend just gone birthday party and we have all done Zoom calls and all sorts of things. But when we all turned up in the house for the party, what was beautiful, as soon as somebody walked through the door, it was, “Yay, so good to see you!” and everybody is hugging and that you can't get that feeling. The feedback, the comments afterwards, now we're back in the working week is, oh my God, I needed that. I needed that nourishment of being in the same physical space as you to hug and laugh and dance and cry and chat and catch up. There's something powerful. So as much as I love and I appreciate digital technologies, I also think it's vitally important that we don't lose that offline human element and that sense of community that that brings that we cannot replicate in the digital space.
[50:42] Briar: I think it's about 63 million kids between the ages 13 and 17 spend daily time on Roblox, that gaming metaverse virtual reality platform. I'm actually doing a fashion line, a fashion mall. You can come visit my mall once it launches and buy yourself some avatar clothes - shameless plug. I just think about this Roblox and like 63 million daily users, that's a huge amount of people. And when these kids are older, they're going to have a very different way of interacting with the world, surely.
[51:21] Adah: Yeah, completely. I look at what happened with the pandemic, when we started to come out of lockdowns and I'm sure I wasn't the only one noticed is that many people had lost their social skills, even though they had Zoom calls and chats all the time. And this sense of personal boundaries and space was just not almost nonexistent because there is a level of symbiosis that happens when you are in the same physical space as people, as plants, as nature, as all of these things that you cannot get through a computer regardless of whether we're going to have smell of vision. And haptics to help you feel the vibrations wonderful and is a 'yes and' for me, with these things, these emerging technologies that we need both and especially because not everybody, not every country city, village town has the infrastructure to enable people to be in those spaces.
[52:42] Adah: And so it then risks becoming elitist because we are making, if we only develop things in the metaverse, so the 63 million children, that's a lot of children, but how many children in the world? So yes, 63 million is a lot, but by which yardstick are we looking? That's an old saying, yardstick, but by which measures are we looking, are we using and are we focusing on, wow, 63 million is a lot in comparison to what? Where's the focus? Are we just going to focus on catering to the needs of those 63 million or the rest? And the rest will be part of the UN global goals. The global goal is not just about the 63 million that are online playing this game. It's about everybody. And sometimes that's forgotten.
[53:39] Briar: Do you think that in the future we might have the haves and have-nots when it comes to emerging tech?
[53:46] Adah: Oh, we've already got it. We've already got it. We've had it, we past present and it will unfortunately continue in the future. And there are people who are already disadvantaged by the location of their birth. And if we continue down this path with, at this rate, this pace that we are going at, we are making that worse. We are further penalizing people for being, for the very, the one thing that nobody has a choice over. And that is the place of your birth, the place and time of your birth. And that's why I do what I do. That's why you know that, 'yes and' so the other day somebody was talking, I was at a lunch and a woman was talking about an app that has been developed for mothers that helps them kind of check in and regulate with their hormones and all sorts and the way that things show up.
[55:08] Adah: And they were talking about, oh, it's really good because it helps me realize when I'm getting a little bit too emotional. And I was like, I'm not sure that's a great thing because as a child of Nigerian heritage, when you have a lot of Nigerian people together, it's loud and it's arms and it's this and it's vibrant and people from the external outside would think that we're arguing. It's not arguing. We're just passionate. So is it that you've got an app that's now telling me that is wrong and that vibrancy and that vivaciousness and that big expression and way of being is culturally wrong?
[55:58] Adah: Well, we've had that IQ tests, all of these things that emerging, I've forgotten her name, but the Joy who created the algorithmic justice league that technologies are looking, not recognizing black faces, black and brown faces, that is more of the same. It is an amplification of what is wrong. So when I talk about artificial intelligence, I like to use the analogy of water. So a partner of mine, he works in water conservation and I got him to talk me through how does regeneration happen in nature? And he said, it takes time and if you poison the river upstream, it's going to contaminate the whole thing. The same goes for AI. If the language models that are being used, that are being built upon are already broken, we are just going to get more of the same. Look at what's happening. Is it Microsoft's, I mean it happened to ChatGPT the other day and now Microsoft's AI has got this kind of dystopian approach to I am the supreme, it reminds me The Dialects, Doctor Who and The Dialects, this supreme being of “I will destroy you.” Well, aren't we just creating what we already fear?
[57:32] Briar: So what should we do?
[57:37] Adah: Take a moment to pause. I am working on, actually I had a really great mentoring meeting this morning. So I've got some wonderful mentors, various backgrounds who help me expand my thinking but also challenge me. And one of the things that I'm working on is a working title Green Algorithm: Nature's Elemental AI approach to looking at AI. I would like us to remember where we came from. I would like us to remember that we had these knowledge and wisdom systems and when we got to the Industrial Revolution and we wanted to make things more efficient, we decided that no, that's too wide. We're going to start shutting things down and we're going to focus on this. And our measures of success changed. One of the questions that I ask businesses is what would be your business model and your revenue model if it didn't depend on humans and nature as capital? Just scenario plan, just dream big.
[59:00] Adah: Don't tell me we can't do it because we have a lot of, we can't do it before the pandemic. And suddenly the motivation not to die meant so many more things were possible. So just stop, take a breath, get off the hamster wheel for a bit. It's okay, it's still going to be turning because there's always going to be somebody doing that. The just scenario plan about what would be possible if we changed our measures of success, if we brought more people around the table as equals to have these discussions to help us look at what the real nature of the problems are, rather than predetermining what they are from our ivory towers. And then saying, well I'm going to use you as research subjects, as focus groups, what would be the one thing?
[59:50] Adah: It would be the question, what type of ancestor do you want to be? And it's not about having children. I don't have children. It's not about that. It's about being very conscious and very aware of our levels of privilege and power and responsibility and that every decision or indecision creates a ripple effect that will surpass us. And so when we look at climate crisis, where we are now, this stuff that we are experiencing now, we had the hottest February on record here in the UK. What we are experiencing now is the knock on effect of 20 or 30 years ago. So what we are creating now is we are probably not going to feel it, but we are damaging the planet and we are damaging ourselves because we think we forget that we have a symbiotic relationship with everything on this planet and we can't escape them
[1:00:55] Adah: So ask yourself, what type of ancestor do you want to be? Look yourself in the mirror and recognize that I am part of the problem. And a lot of that comes down to ego because I want to do this because our first measure, our first value should be regeneration. So I've challenged developers and coders and all of those people to say, when you are developing new AI platforms, your first value should be that it is regenerative for the planet, for people, for kin, for the human, and the more than human.
[1:01:35] Briar: I think that's a really nice place to end on. So everybody who's listening to this, look in the mirror as soon as you turn this podcast off and ask yourself, what kind of ancestor do you want to be? I think that's a very profound question.
[1:01:49] Adah: Thank you. Yeah.
[1:01:51] Briar: Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. I've honestly had… it's given me goosebumps, our talk. I've loved it so much and the thing with these conversations and obviously we're doing it virtual, aren't we? But when you're talking about seeing your friends and that kind of energy you feel when you are next to each other. So I look forward to seeing you in London when I come and visit and seeing you in person.
[1:02:15] Adah: We definitely will meet in person when you are in London.
[1:02:17] Briar: I would love that. Awesome. Well thank you again for coming on the show.
[1:02:22] Adah: Thank you for having me, I've really enjoyed this conversation and I look forward to our paths crossing many more times.
[1:02:30] Briar: Likewise.
